NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby Mike Goodman » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:11 pm

Barkley is funnier, Malone is meaner.
I'm generally partial to players who stay in one place, vs those who can't or won't stay put.
A superstar who is traded or leaves his team is one his franchise could not sustainably build around.
Malone has only once been the first placed power forward on such lists (Slam 2003).

Hey, I've had Malone as alltime top PF for some years now. See the Career Statistics forum.
Duncan will have passed him after this season -- if he's a PF.
Whilst Malone was arguably recipient of one "lets not give it to MJ" vote (in '97 Malone did have the best PER, but had a lower WS and WS/48 and did so from a position it is arguably easier to post high advanced metrics from...

Ah, well it depends on how "advanced" are your metrics. Assists are associated with ball movement, an unrecorded contribution. Scoring incorporates shot-creation and "moving without the ball". Three-point skill also "opens the floor" for teammates to utilize their offense.

Ideally it seems a player should get minutes depending on what they bring to the table, or to the floor. But productivity also matters. A metric may utilize both, and still give credit for team success.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby MW » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:36 pm

Mike Goodman wrote:Barkley is funnier, Malone is meaner.
I'm generally partial to players who stay in one place, vs those who can't or won't stay put.
A superstar who is traded or leaves his team is one his franchise could not sustainably build around.

A valid point though you have to account for circumstances (players shouldn't have to stick around on bad /poorly managed teams). Also you would have to account for near trades e.g. the Houston-Olajuwon realationship broke down and he was nearly gone in the summer of '92.
Mike Goodman wrote:
Malone has only once been the first placed power forward on such lists (Slam 2003).

Hey, I've had Malone as alltime top PF for some years now. See the Career Statistics forum.
Duncan will have passed him after this season -- if he's a PF.

Yeah I try to preface those comments on rankings with "published". If we were to add metrics then Malone would have career Hollinger EWA (I think), career Win Shares and I'm guessing any other accumulative metric.
Mike Goodman wrote:
Whilst Malone was arguably recipient of one "lets not give it to MJ" vote (in '97 Malone did have the best PER, but had a lower WS and WS/48 and did so from a position it is arguably easier to post high advanced metrics from...

Ah, well it depends on how "advanced" are your metrics. Assists are associated with ball movement, an unrecorded contribution. Scoring incorporates shot-creation and "moving without the ball". Three-point skill also "opens the floor" for teammates to utilize their offense.

Ideally it seems a player should get minutes depending on what they bring to the table, or to the floor. But productivity also matters. A metric may utilize both, and still give credit for team success.

Yeah every metric will differ. The essential point is that (possibly because of the small talent pool and thus wider talent disparity amongst bigs or perhaps because of what metrics can/do measure) it is "easier" (for want a better word) for a big to be exceptional or at least the top metrics seasons have tended to skew big. It might therefore be considered a greater achievement to achieve a comparable "score" as a smaller player for some metrics.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby MW » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:41 pm

Need To Argue wrote:I figured Baylor over Malone would be lop-sided, but I thought Barry over Malone would be as well. Barry belongs in that special area where guys aren't replacable. Think of guys who went to the finals with not a ton around them. Moses in Houston going against loaded Celtics team, Lebron with Cavs, McAdoo with Braves (though Conference Finals). These teams would be losing teams without these players. Barry was arguably the best player in the game at that time. Though being a small forward, he rebounded well, occasionally passed the ball and was an offensive force from the outside while being dangerous attacking the basket. I am very comfortable saying he is a top ten to fifteen player. There isn't anyone today I would take over him.
Side note to that: Lebron had the best supporting cast of those four and lost to the weakest opponent of the four while Moses had the weakest surrounding cast and most difficult opponent.

I don't foresee Hughes or an aging Ilgauskas making the HoF as Wilkes did (nor rank ahead of players included in your top 100, as Wilkes did ahead of Cliff Hagan and Gus Johnson in NTA forwards section). Later Cavs teams around LeBron were adequate on talent and strong in terms of fit. But the '07 finalists sans LeBron would have been awful. The Spurs were a dynasty near their peak too.

Need To Argue wrote:Not sure why the first guys people want to remove are the older guys. Note to everyone pushing Lenny Wilkens out the door: Everytime I read the descriptions of Jason Kidd and all of the traits he posseses, I picture Wilkens. Very similar player. Coach on the floor type. I admit I have had Kidd rather low, but when I updated my lists I have him in the top hundred, but not the fifty.

It really depends what you mean by the “older guys”
Some would say your listings skew anti-modern (post 1990). At centre David Robinson (3.123 MVP shares, led league in ppg, rpg, bpg, top 5 in fg%, steals. Multi-time leader in various advanced metrics, 4 times 1st team All-NBA, 4 times 1st team All-D) and Shaq (4.308 MVP shares, multi-time leader in various advanced metrics, 8x first team all NBA) are ranked behind Reed, Cowens, Unseld and even Lanier in Need to Argue. Those 4 cumulatively only just have more MVP shares than Robinson (3.554) and less than Shaq’s total. You’d have to consider 70s pivot play vastly superior to think that the longer, more statistically prolific (advanced metrics and totals) and more accolade receiving players were worse.
I could do the same with Marques Johnson and Bill Bradley both over Kevin Garnett and LeBron James (in 2009). Cazzie Russell over Dirk Nowitzki. Or Theus and Dick McGuire over Jason Kidd.
I think there can be instances where historical players get overlooked (to me the likes of Bob Davies, Jim Pollard and Neil Johnston come to mind). But I haven’t noticed systematic biases against any era.
Ultimately there’s going to be a limit to how meaningful cross-era comparisons can be as the game, playing conditions and talent pool changes.
Need To Argue wrote:I still question why George Gervin is so high. I have him in the fiftys.

I would agree with this. Or at least that he is the rankings that have him so high rank inconsistently. Both he and Adrian Dantley are scorers who combined volume with efficiency but added very little elsewhere. Gervin would seem to have the worse rep as a defender and in terms of professionalism (to oversimplify greatly, Gervin dabbled in drugs, Dantley gets glowing references from coaching legends like Morgan Wooten and “Digger” Phelps, and teammates like Dumars and Salley, though of course none are impartial, and was called the Teacher). Dantley seems to have been harder to get along with (clashing with Layden in Utah and Isiah in Detroit). Personally I don’t see the gap that makes Gervin a lock for top 50s and Dantley a rarity.

My guess at why others perceive it is
a) Gervin played the bulk of his career at 1 club and thus has a loyal set of boosters to promote him.
b) Team performance.
c) Peers. Gervin peaked after Bing, Maravich, Monroe and Goodrich were down or on their way out (ditto Lou Hudson and Charlie Scott). His biggest rival Thompson had drug and injury problems, and Westphal had injury troubles too. Gervin was a perpetual All-NBA 1st teamer in part because of relatively weak competition amongst guards. Dantley meanwhile suffered by comparison with Bird and could be lost in the pack of 80s high scoring small forwards.
d) Perception that Detroit improved without Dantley. Arguments against that include: (a) he was the best Piston (perhaps the best player overall) in the previous year’s finals and (b) Detroit’s late season charge preceded the trade. Dantley was traded after six consecutive wins the last of which was a 110-103 victory at the Forum.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby Need To Argue » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:22 am

I think the Warriors without Barry would have been out of the playoffs. Rockets without Moses would be worse and Braves without McAdoo real bad as well. Though Cavs without Lebron aren't great, I do think they could/would make the playoffs especially in the current league.

Older players for me are the ones that seem to get the least respect. When mentioning great forwards, why isn't Schayes mentioned?
Visually captivating players seem to get too much respect, like Gervin and Dominique. Lunchpails like Wes Unseld and Hal Greer don't seem to get enough.

As far as the active players you mentioned that I had yet to move up, I have. The lists in the book were printed in early 2009 though completed closer to 2007-ish. So to be as up-to-date as my lists are now here is my most recent updates from June 2011. I am due to update this one after this or next season.
As always I look forward to input, critiques, opinions...you know I live for this stuff. Seems like not alone.
Enjoy!






TOP 500 BASKETBALL PLAYERS
1 Wilt Chamberlain 35 John Stockton 69 Joe Dumars
2 Bill Russell 36 Jerry Lucas 70 Bernard King
3 Larry Bird 37 Billy Cunningham 71 Dirk Nowitzki
4 Magic Johnson 38 Dave DeBusschere 72 Allen Iverson
5 Oscar Robertson 39 Dave Bing 73 David Thompson
6 Jerry West 40 Kevin Garnett 74 Connie Hawkins
7 Michael Jordan 41 Hal Greer 75 Reggie Miller
8 Elgin Baylor 42 Bill Sharman 76 Joe Fulks
9 Kareem Abdul Jabbar 43 Lenny Wilkens 77 Jim Pollard
10 Rick Barry 44 Sam Jones 78 Gus Johnson
11 Julius Erving 45 Earl Monroe 79 Cliff Hagan
12 John Havlicek 46 Charles Barkley 80 Mel Daniels
13 Moses Malone 47 LeBron James 81 Jack Twyman
14 Bob Pettit 48 Bob Lanier 82 Vern Mikkelsen
15 Isiah Thomas 49 Bob McAdoo 83 Tom Heinsohn
16 Elvin Hayes 50 Kevin McHale 84 Walt Bellamy
17 Tim Duncan 51 Scottie Pippen 85 Slater Martin
18 Walt Frazier 52 Paul Arizin 86 Dick McGuire
19 Kobe Bryant 53 Dwayne Wade 87 Steve Nash
20 Hakeem Olajuwon 54 George Gervin 88 Gail Goodrich
21 George Mikan 55 Robert Parish 89 Clyde Lovellette
22 Bob Cousy 56 Dominique Wilkins 90 Paul Westphal
23 Willis Reed 57 Dennis Johnson 91 Harry Gallatin
24 Dave Cowens 58 Alex English 92 Neil Johnston
25 Wes Unseld 59 Sidney Moncrief 93 Ray Allen
26 Shaquille O’Neal 60 Paul Pierce 94 Ed Macauley
27 Pete Maravich 61 Adrian Dantley 95 George Yardley
28 Nate Thurmond 62 Marques Johnson 96 Al Cervi
29 Dolph Schayes 63 Gary Payton 97 Buddy Jeannette
30 Nate Archibald 64 Clyde Drexler 98 George McGinnis
31 Patrick Ewing 65 Dan Issel 99 Jason Kidd
32 David Robinson 66 Bill Walton 100 Buck Williams
33 James Worthy 67 Artis Gilmore
34 Karl Malone 68 Spencer Haywood























101 Jack Sikma 135 Lou Hudson 169 Vlade Divac
102 Gus Williams 136 Grant Hill 170 Chauncey Billups
103 Walter Davis 137 Mark Jackson 171 Norm Nixon
104 Bob Davies 138 Dikembe Motumbo 172 Chris Mullin
105 Mark Price 139 Mark Aguirre 173 Glen Rice
106 Michael Ray Richardson140 Roger Brown 174 Austin Carr
107 Bill Bradley 141 Bill Cartwright 175 Antonio McDyess
108 Bailey Howell 142 Larry Nance 176 Carmelo Anthony
109 Max Zaslofsky 143 Tom Chambers 177 Pau Gasol
110 Calvin Murphy 144 Shawn Kemp 178 Sam Lacey
111 Jo Jo White 145 Tim Hardaway 179 Deron Williams
112 Frank Ramsey 146 Rolando Blackman 180 Larry Foust
113 Bobby Wanzer 147 Kiki Vandewaghe 181 Yao Ming
114 Joe Lapchick 148 Xavier McDaniel 182 Rony Seikaly
115 Tom Gola 149 Larry Johnson 183 Rasheed Wallace
116 Andy Phillip 150 Arnie Risen 184 Chuck Person
117 Terry Cummings 151 Bobby Jones 185 Manu Ginobili
118 Maurice Cheeks 152 John Drew 186 Phil Chenier
119 Dwight Howard 153 Rudy Tomjanovich 187 Happy Hairston
120 Richie Guerin 154 Mike Mitchell 188 Jeff Hornacek
121 Kevin Johnson 155 Alvin Adams 189 James Jones
122 Maurice Lucas 156 Rik Smits 190 Darrel Griffith
123 Jamaal Wilkes 157 Johnny Red Kerr 191 World B Free
124 Alonzo Mourning 158 Dan Roundfield 192 Jerry Sloan
125 Bill Laimbeer 159 Truck Robinson 193 K.C. Jones
126 Zelmo Beaty 160 Otis Thorpe 194 Charles Oakley
127 Charles Tarzan Cooper161 Chris Paul 195 Paul Silas
128 Bob Love 162 Cedric Maxwell 196 Dennis Rodman
129 Chet Walker 163 Chris Webber 197 Larry Kenon
130 Brad Daugherty 164 Derrick Coleman 198 Charlie Scott
131 Bobby Dandridge 165 Vince Carter 199 Byron Scott
132 Reggie Theus 166 Carl Braun 200 Jeff Malone
133 Otis Birdsong 167 Mitch Richmond
134 Randy Smith 168 Glenn Robinson
















201 Cowboy Edwards 235 John Williamson 269 Red Holtzman
202 Mark Eaton 236 Kevin Loughery 270 Geoff Petrie
203 Wayman Tisdale 237 Brian Winters 271 Darryl Dawkins
204 Jack Marin 238 Cazzie Russell 272 Eddie Johnson (Atl)
205 Dick Barnett 239 Sean Elliott 273 Damon Stoudamire
206 Tracy McGrady 240 Juwan Howard 274 Rod Strickland
207 Dutch Denhert 241 Guy Rodgers 275 Andre Miller
208 Fat Lever 242 Danny Manning 276 Reggie Williams
209 Johnny Green 243 Dan Majerle 277 Rickie Green
210 Jeff Mullins 244 Scott Wedman 278 Eddie Johnson (Pho)
211 Antoine Walker 245 Gene Shue 279 Purvis Short
212 Jim Chones 246 Detlef Schrempf 280 Calvin Natt
213 Terry Porter 247 Drazen Petrovic 281 Mychael Thompson
214 Dale Ellis 248 Sam Perkins 282 Roy Hinson
215 Andrew Toney 249 Chris Bosh 283 Jamal Mashburn
216 Ralph Sampson 250 Doc Rivers 284 Tom Owens
217 Alvin Robertson 251 Phil Smith 285 Antwan Jamison
218 Sidney Wicks 252 Jermaine O’Neal 286 Elton Brand
219 Cliff Robinson 253 Sam Cassell 287 Dick Van Arsdale
220 Amare Stoudamire 254 Reggie Lewis 288 Tom Van Arsdale
221 Billy Paultz 255 Derek Harper 289 Willie Naulls
222 Richard Hamilton 256 Larry Costello 290 Maurice Stokes
223 Tony Parker 257 Fred Carter 291 Clifford Robinson
224 Ron Harper 258 John Lucas 292 Horace Grant
225 Penny Hardaway 259 Billy Knight 293 Steve Smith
226 Archie Clark 260 Marcus Camby 294 Jim McMillan
227 James Silas 261 Ron Boone 295 Ben Wallace
228 Norm Van Lier 262 Jim Paxson 296 Kevin Willis
229 Kelly Tripuka 263 Anthony Mason 297 Roy Tarpley
230 Mack Calvin 264 Mike Newlin 298 Rickie Pierce
231 Clifford Ray 265 Joe Johnson 299 Tree Rollins
232 Vin Baker 266 Fred Brown 300 Elmore Smith
233 Willie Wise 267 Jeff Ruland
234 Doug Collins 268 Ray Williams





















301 Shawn Marion 335 Michael Redd 369 Ray Scott
302 Sleepy Floyd 336 Armen Gilliam 370 Bob Rule
303 Latrell Spreewell 337 Cedric Ceballos 371 Steve Stipanovich
304 Kevin Duckworth 338 Charles Smith 372 Peja Stojakovic
305 Hersey Hawkins 339 Carlos Boozer 373 Phil Hubbard
306 Arvydas Sabonis 340 Phil Ford 374 John Johnson
307 David West 341 Marvin Barnes 375 David Greenwood
308 Shareef Abdur-Rahim 342 Junior Bridgeman 376 Bill Bridges
309 Mickey Johnson 343 Campy Russell 377 Jerome Kersey
310 Kenny Norman 344 Toni Kukoc 378 Luke Jackson
311 Joe Barry Carroll 345 Kenny Sears 379 Kenny Smith
312 Caldwell Jones 346 Kenny Carr 380 Jimmy Jackson
313 James Edwards 347 Bob Boozer 381 Derek Smith
314 Allen Houston 348 Herb Williams 382 Lionel Hollins
315 Baron Davis 349 Eldon Campbell 383 Michael Finley
316 Flynn Robinson 350 AC Green 384 Nick Anderson
317 Gilbert Arenas 351 Derrick McKey 385 Caron Butler
318 Robert Reid 352 Rickey Mahorn 386 Lamar Odom
319 Rodney McCray 353 Johnny Davis 387 Zach Randolph
320 Hot Rod Williams 354 Neal Walk 388 Terry Catledge
321 Mike Bibby 355 Swen Nater 389 Tom Gugliotta
322 Kendall Gill 356 Quinn Buckner 390 Dale Davis
323 Zydrunas Ilgauskas 357 Louie Dampier 391 Antonio Davis
324 Ralph Beard 358 Jimmy Walker 392 Stephon Marbury
325 Don Nelson 359 Michael Cooper 393 Kurt Thomas
326 Larry Brown 360 Dennis Scott 394 Andre Iguodala
327 Kenny Anderson 361 Kevin Greavy 395 Howie Komives
328 Michael Adams 362 Clark Kellogg 396 Jerry Stackhouse
329 Mookie Blaylock 363 Tom Henderson 397 Avery Johnson
330 Paul Pressey 364 Kevin Porter 398 Danny Ainge
331 Gerald Wilkins 365 John Long 399 Johnny Dawkins
332 Vernon Maxwell 366 Mahmoud Abdul-Raef 400 Terry Dischinger
333 Thurl Bailey 367 Willie Anderson
334 Orlando Woolridge 368 Terrell Brandon




















401 Jay Humphries 435 Kenyon Martin 469 George Carter
402 Freddie Lewis 436 Rudy Gay 470 Joakim Noah
403 Kermit Washington 437 Sherman Douglas 471 Brook Lopez
404 Kevin Durant 438 Robert Horry 472 Theo Ratliff
405 Sweetwater Clifton 439 Luol Deng 473 Don Ohl
406 John Shumate 440 Rudy LaRusso 474 Don Kojis
407 Sam Bowie 441 Doug Moe 475 Rashard Lewis
408 John Starks 442 Tom Meschery 476 Tayshaun Prince
409 Derrick Rose 443 Wayne Embry 477 Al Harrington
410 Donnie Freeman 444 Steve Johnson 478 Brandon Roy
411 Pooh Richardson 445 Billy Keller 479 Mike Woodson
412 Benoit Benjamin 446 Footsie Walker 480 Ron Brewer
413 Michael Cage 447 Ron Artest 481 Rex Chapman
414 Mike Gminski 448 Larry Hughes 482 Dell Curry
415 Ray Felix 449 Wali Jones 483 Nick Van Exel
416 Walter Dukes 450 Steve Francis 484 Clem Haskins
417 Bingo Smith 451 Bruce Bowen 485 Jason Richardson
418 Walt Hazzard 452 Derek Fisher 486 Doug Christie
419 Rajon Rondo 453 Eddie Jones 487 Devin Harris
420 Dick Garmaker 454 Ralph Simpson 488 Johnny Newman
421 Derek Anderson 455 Adrian Smith 489 Johnny Neumann
422 Brian Taylor 456 Vern Fleming 490 Corey Maggette
423 Ricky Sobers 457 Don Chaney 491 Richard Jefferson
424 Larry Drew 458 Satch Sanders 492 Hedo Turkoglu
425 Ben Gordon 459 Nate McMillan 493 Mike Bantom
426 Jason Terry 460 Lucious Allen 494 Terry Tyler
427 Vinnie Johnson 461 Bob Netolicky 495 Steve Mix
428 Marvin Webster 462 Bob Kauffman 496 Lionel Simmons
429 Andrew Bogut 463 Joe Caldwell 497 Gerald Wallace
430 Emeka Okafor 464 Red Robbins 498 Quintin Richardson
431 Lonnie Shelton 465 Cincy Powell 499 Michael Brooks
432 Larry Smith 466 Rich Jones 500 Christian Laettner
433 Jay Vincent 467 Steve Jones
434 Greg Ballard 468 Mel Hutchins
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby mtamada » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:32 am

Robert Bradley wrote:Bird
Duncan (unless you want to call him a center)
Garnett
Baylor
Pettit
Erving
Barkley
Malone
Barry
Havlicek
Pippen
Hayes


Good list especially the way that Garnett, well-known though he is, is probably underrated by most people. There's a tough irony though: last year the Celtics spent half of the season floundering around .500 until injuries forced them to move Garnett to center, and they subsequently had a nice last-season surge. I think it's similar to how the Knicks won championships after they shfited Reed to center, how the Celtics won championships when Auerbach ignored the nay-sayers and played the undersized Dave Cowens at center, and how the Sonics won their championship after moving Sikma to center. Like Garnett (who throughout his career has expressed his preference for playing forward and not center) those were players who in theory could've been even more dominant at forward, in terms of outplaying their counterparts. At center they were simply not in the category of Wilt, Jabbar, Russell. But they were such good team defenders that their teams simply had to play them at center; a player who can play top-level team defense the way those three could has a transformative effect on a team's defense. Garnett's not one of the top 6 centers ever, but he's one of the top 6 forwards ever. But ironically he may have made his best contributions at center, had he played it more often.

Until Duncan and Garnett came around, my top 4 forwards were Bird, Erving, Baylor, Pettit; not that far from RobertB's list. Then Malone, and then it gets tough with Barkley and Barry both having some baggage; Havlicek not having that baggage but not being quite as talented and versatile as them (he was highly versatile in terms of being able to swing to guard, but we're talking about forwards here and he couldn't do the rebounding and inside things the way that Barkley or even Barry could). It's not until now that I've thought about where to put Duncan and Garnett; Duncan especially is problematic because one could argue that he was more of a center than a forward, but I think I would go ahead and place them both at forward, and come to think of it I'd put them both exactly where Robert does, at #2 and #3 behind Bird.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby mtamada » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:05 am

Oh, and of course there's LeBron. Still relatively young, but he very much looks like he'll end up at least #4 on the list of all-time forwards ... and #1 isn't out of the question.

He's also yet another player for whom the categories "wing" and "big" are woefully inadequate. Not clear what kind of forward he is either, although as with those other high-flying superstars I'd say he's more of a SF than PF.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby Mike Goodman » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:00 am

Take a look at LeBron's b-r.com page -- http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... sle01.html

They now show players' primary position each season, though we don't know how that's been determined. Perhaps by totaling the minutes of everyone on the team that year, per position.

As a rookie, LeBron is shown as SG, and SF every year since -- until this season, and he's now a PF. Power point forward, I presume.
At the top of his page, he's called Forward-Guard.
Bosh is apparently the C this year in most of his minutes.

Duncan is shown as PF his first 9 years, and C his last 7.
Garnett is described as Forward under his name, but as his team's C this year and last year.
Barry and Baylor are SF throughout their careers.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby Mike Goodman » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:15 am

I try to preface those comments on rankings with "published". If we were to add metrics then Malone would have career Hollinger EWA (I think), career Win Shares and I'm guessing any other accumulative metric.

Aha, well, by the time they're published, it's about time to update them.
Unless they're just subjective, i.e. "personal preference" lists.

It also matters what you do with any given metric(s).
How much do playoffs matter? Championships?
The little unmeasured things a player does may appear in the statistics after all: By getting minutes (which allow more accumulated stats), and by contributing to wins (which lead to more playoff games and titles).

Some say the regular season's only significance is to set a team up for a playoff run; and then you see which players are really elite, by what they do.
Others say postseasons are either insignificant or a matter of luck, regarding whether a player is in or out, in a given year.

Robert Horry got in a lot of playoff games, and I'd say it was partly luck and partly his tendency to excel at those times.
Clifford Robinson got into a lot of playoffs but not so many games, nor titles. Similar luck, opposite tendencies.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby Mike Goodman » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:54 pm

LoveToArgue, I see you now have Nowitzki at #71 and Bill Bradley #107.
Did you downgrade Bradley while acknowledging Dirk, since our last discussions regarding these two?
And you now say Jason Kidd has been better than KC Jones.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby MW » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:25 am

Mike Goodman wrote:LoveToArgue, I see you now have Nowitzki at #71 and Bill Bradley #107.
Did you downgrade Bradley while acknowledging Dirk, since our last discussions regarding these two?
And you now say Jason Kidd has been better than KC Jones.

My guess, without wishing to speak for anyone is that the major adjustment is with Nowitzki who having ranked 92 amongst forwards could very roughly and approximately (based on the - false- assumption that each position was equally strong i.e. the top two forwards, two guards and one centre at one level and rank 1-5 overall and so forth) at around 230th overall (92x2.5). Bradley's movement, having previously been 28th amongst forwards, not in top 50, in top hundred, crude approximate of rank 70, to 107 suggests some reappraisal but to a lesser degree.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby MW » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:22 pm

Need To Argue wrote:I think the Warriors without Barry would have been out of the playoffs. Rockets without Moses would be worse and Braves without McAdoo real bad as well. Though Cavs without Lebron aren't great, I do think they could/would make the playoffs especially in the current league.

Older players for me are the ones that seem to get the least respect. When mentioning great forwards, why isn't Schayes mentioned?
Visually captivating players seem to get too much respect, like Gervin and Dominique. Lunchpails like Wes Unseld and Hal Greer don't seem to get enough.

As far as the active players you mentioned that I had yet to move up, I have. The lists in the book were printed in early 2009 though completed closer to 2007-ish. So to be as up-to-date as my lists are now here is my most recent updates from June 2011. I am due to update this one after this or next season.
As always I look forward to input, critiques, opinions...you know I live for this stuff. Seems like not alone.
Enjoy!






TOP 500 BASKETBALL PLAYERS
1 Wilt Chamberlain 35 John Stockton 69 Joe Dumars
2 Bill Russell 36 Jerry Lucas 70 Bernard King
3 Larry Bird 37 Billy Cunningham 71 Dirk Nowitzki
4 Magic Johnson 38 Dave DeBusschere 72 Allen Iverson
5 Oscar Robertson 39 Dave Bing 73 David Thompson
6 Jerry West 40 Kevin Garnett 74 Connie Hawkins
7 Michael Jordan 41 Hal Greer 75 Reggie Miller
8 Elgin Baylor 42 Bill Sharman 76 Joe Fulks
9 Kareem Abdul Jabbar 43 Lenny Wilkens 77 Jim Pollard
10 Rick Barry 44 Sam Jones 78 Gus Johnson
11 Julius Erving 45 Earl Monroe 79 Cliff Hagan
12 John Havlicek 46 Charles Barkley 80 Mel Daniels
13 Moses Malone 47 LeBron James 81 Jack Twyman
14 Bob Pettit 48 Bob Lanier 82 Vern Mikkelsen
15 Isiah Thomas 49 Bob McAdoo 83 Tom Heinsohn
16 Elvin Hayes 50 Kevin McHale 84 Walt Bellamy
17 Tim Duncan 51 Scottie Pippen 85 Slater Martin
18 Walt Frazier 52 Paul Arizin 86 Dick McGuire
19 Kobe Bryant 53 Dwayne Wade 87 Steve Nash
20 Hakeem Olajuwon 54 George Gervin 88 Gail Goodrich
21 George Mikan 55 Robert Parish 89 Clyde Lovellette
22 Bob Cousy 56 Dominique Wilkins 90 Paul Westphal
23 Willis Reed 57 Dennis Johnson 91 Harry Gallatin
24 Dave Cowens 58 Alex English 92 Neil Johnston
25 Wes Unseld 59 Sidney Moncrief 93 Ray Allen
26 Shaquille O’Neal 60 Paul Pierce 94 Ed Macauley
27 Pete Maravich 61 Adrian Dantley 95 George Yardley
28 Nate Thurmond 62 Marques Johnson 96 Al Cervi
29 Dolph Schayes 63 Gary Payton 97 Buddy Jeannette
30 Nate Archibald 64 Clyde Drexler 98 George McGinnis
31 Patrick Ewing 65 Dan Issel 99 Jason Kidd
32 David Robinson 66 Bill Walton 100 Buck Williams
33 James Worthy 67 Artis Gilmore
34 Karl Malone 68 Spencer Haywood























101 Jack Sikma 135 Lou Hudson 169 Vlade Divac
102 Gus Williams 136 Grant Hill 170 Chauncey Billups
103 Walter Davis 137 Mark Jackson 171 Norm Nixon
104 Bob Davies 138 Dikembe Motumbo 172 Chris Mullin
105 Mark Price 139 Mark Aguirre 173 Glen Rice
106 Michael Ray Richardson140 Roger Brown 174 Austin Carr
107 Bill Bradley 141 Bill Cartwright 175 Antonio McDyess
108 Bailey Howell 142 Larry Nance 176 Carmelo Anthony
109 Max Zaslofsky 143 Tom Chambers 177 Pau Gasol
110 Calvin Murphy 144 Shawn Kemp 178 Sam Lacey
111 Jo Jo White 145 Tim Hardaway 179 Deron Williams
112 Frank Ramsey 146 Rolando Blackman 180 Larry Foust
113 Bobby Wanzer 147 Kiki Vandewaghe 181 Yao Ming
114 Joe Lapchick 148 Xavier McDaniel 182 Rony Seikaly
115 Tom Gola 149 Larry Johnson 183 Rasheed Wallace
116 Andy Phillip 150 Arnie Risen 184 Chuck Person
117 Terry Cummings 151 Bobby Jones 185 Manu Ginobili
118 Maurice Cheeks 152 John Drew 186 Phil Chenier
119 Dwight Howard 153 Rudy Tomjanovich 187 Happy Hairston
120 Richie Guerin 154 Mike Mitchell 188 Jeff Hornacek
121 Kevin Johnson 155 Alvin Adams 189 James Jones
122 Maurice Lucas 156 Rik Smits 190 Darrel Griffith
123 Jamaal Wilkes 157 Johnny Red Kerr 191 World B Free
124 Alonzo Mourning 158 Dan Roundfield 192 Jerry Sloan
125 Bill Laimbeer 159 Truck Robinson 193 K.C. Jones
126 Zelmo Beaty 160 Otis Thorpe 194 Charles Oakley
127 Charles Tarzan Cooper161 Chris Paul 195 Paul Silas
128 Bob Love 162 Cedric Maxwell 196 Dennis Rodman
129 Chet Walker 163 Chris Webber 197 Larry Kenon
130 Brad Daugherty 164 Derrick Coleman 198 Charlie Scott
131 Bobby Dandridge 165 Vince Carter 199 Byron Scott
132 Reggie Theus 166 Carl Braun 200 Jeff Malone
133 Otis Birdsong 167 Mitch Richmond
134 Randy Smith 168 Glenn Robinson
















201 Cowboy Edwards 235 John Williamson 269 Red Holtzman
202 Mark Eaton 236 Kevin Loughery 270 Geoff Petrie
203 Wayman Tisdale 237 Brian Winters 271 Darryl Dawkins
204 Jack Marin 238 Cazzie Russell 272 Eddie Johnson (Atl)
205 Dick Barnett 239 Sean Elliott 273 Damon Stoudamire
206 Tracy McGrady 240 Juwan Howard 274 Rod Strickland
207 Dutch Denhert 241 Guy Rodgers 275 Andre Miller
208 Fat Lever 242 Danny Manning 276 Reggie Williams
209 Johnny Green 243 Dan Majerle 277 Rickie Green
210 Jeff Mullins 244 Scott Wedman 278 Eddie Johnson (Pho)
211 Antoine Walker 245 Gene Shue 279 Purvis Short
212 Jim Chones 246 Detlef Schrempf 280 Calvin Natt
213 Terry Porter 247 Drazen Petrovic 281 Mychael Thompson
214 Dale Ellis 248 Sam Perkins 282 Roy Hinson
215 Andrew Toney 249 Chris Bosh 283 Jamal Mashburn
216 Ralph Sampson 250 Doc Rivers 284 Tom Owens
217 Alvin Robertson 251 Phil Smith 285 Antwan Jamison
218 Sidney Wicks 252 Jermaine O’Neal 286 Elton Brand
219 Cliff Robinson 253 Sam Cassell 287 Dick Van Arsdale
220 Amare Stoudamire 254 Reggie Lewis 288 Tom Van Arsdale
221 Billy Paultz 255 Derek Harper 289 Willie Naulls
222 Richard Hamilton 256 Larry Costello 290 Maurice Stokes
223 Tony Parker 257 Fred Carter 291 Clifford Robinson
224 Ron Harper 258 John Lucas 292 Horace Grant
225 Penny Hardaway 259 Billy Knight 293 Steve Smith
226 Archie Clark 260 Marcus Camby 294 Jim McMillan
227 James Silas 261 Ron Boone 295 Ben Wallace
228 Norm Van Lier 262 Jim Paxson 296 Kevin Willis
229 Kelly Tripuka 263 Anthony Mason 297 Roy Tarpley
230 Mack Calvin 264 Mike Newlin 298 Rickie Pierce
231 Clifford Ray 265 Joe Johnson 299 Tree Rollins
232 Vin Baker 266 Fred Brown 300 Elmore Smith
233 Willie Wise 267 Jeff Ruland
234 Doug Collins 268 Ray Williams





















301 Shawn Marion 335 Michael Redd 369 Ray Scott
302 Sleepy Floyd 336 Armen Gilliam 370 Bob Rule
303 Latrell Spreewell 337 Cedric Ceballos 371 Steve Stipanovich
304 Kevin Duckworth 338 Charles Smith 372 Peja Stojakovic
305 Hersey Hawkins 339 Carlos Boozer 373 Phil Hubbard
306 Arvydas Sabonis 340 Phil Ford 374 John Johnson
307 David West 341 Marvin Barnes 375 David Greenwood
308 Shareef Abdur-Rahim 342 Junior Bridgeman 376 Bill Bridges
309 Mickey Johnson 343 Campy Russell 377 Jerome Kersey
310 Kenny Norman 344 Toni Kukoc 378 Luke Jackson
311 Joe Barry Carroll 345 Kenny Sears 379 Kenny Smith
312 Caldwell Jones 346 Kenny Carr 380 Jimmy Jackson
313 James Edwards 347 Bob Boozer 381 Derek Smith
314 Allen Houston 348 Herb Williams 382 Lionel Hollins
315 Baron Davis 349 Eldon Campbell 383 Michael Finley
316 Flynn Robinson 350 AC Green 384 Nick Anderson
317 Gilbert Arenas 351 Derrick McKey 385 Caron Butler
318 Robert Reid 352 Rickey Mahorn 386 Lamar Odom
319 Rodney McCray 353 Johnny Davis 387 Zach Randolph
320 Hot Rod Williams 354 Neal Walk 388 Terry Catledge
321 Mike Bibby 355 Swen Nater 389 Tom Gugliotta
322 Kendall Gill 356 Quinn Buckner 390 Dale Davis
323 Zydrunas Ilgauskas 357 Louie Dampier 391 Antonio Davis
324 Ralph Beard 358 Jimmy Walker 392 Stephon Marbury
325 Don Nelson 359 Michael Cooper 393 Kurt Thomas
326 Larry Brown 360 Dennis Scott 394 Andre Iguodala
327 Kenny Anderson 361 Kevin Greavy 395 Howie Komives
328 Michael Adams 362 Clark Kellogg 396 Jerry Stackhouse
329 Mookie Blaylock 363 Tom Henderson 397 Avery Johnson
330 Paul Pressey 364 Kevin Porter 398 Danny Ainge
331 Gerald Wilkins 365 John Long 399 Johnny Dawkins
332 Vernon Maxwell 366 Mahmoud Abdul-Raef 400 Terry Dischinger
333 Thurl Bailey 367 Willie Anderson
334 Orlando Woolridge 368 Terrell Brandon




















401 Jay Humphries 435 Kenyon Martin 469 George Carter
402 Freddie Lewis 436 Rudy Gay 470 Joakim Noah
403 Kermit Washington 437 Sherman Douglas 471 Brook Lopez
404 Kevin Durant 438 Robert Horry 472 Theo Ratliff
405 Sweetwater Clifton 439 Luol Deng 473 Don Ohl
406 John Shumate 440 Rudy LaRusso 474 Don Kojis
407 Sam Bowie 441 Doug Moe 475 Rashard Lewis
408 John Starks 442 Tom Meschery 476 Tayshaun Prince
409 Derrick Rose 443 Wayne Embry 477 Al Harrington
410 Donnie Freeman 444 Steve Johnson 478 Brandon Roy
411 Pooh Richardson 445 Billy Keller 479 Mike Woodson
412 Benoit Benjamin 446 Footsie Walker 480 Ron Brewer
413 Michael Cage 447 Ron Artest 481 Rex Chapman
414 Mike Gminski 448 Larry Hughes 482 Dell Curry
415 Ray Felix 449 Wali Jones 483 Nick Van Exel
416 Walter Dukes 450 Steve Francis 484 Clem Haskins
417 Bingo Smith 451 Bruce Bowen 485 Jason Richardson
418 Walt Hazzard 452 Derek Fisher 486 Doug Christie
419 Rajon Rondo 453 Eddie Jones 487 Devin Harris
420 Dick Garmaker 454 Ralph Simpson 488 Johnny Newman
421 Derek Anderson 455 Adrian Smith 489 Johnny Neumann
422 Brian Taylor 456 Vern Fleming 490 Corey Maggette
423 Ricky Sobers 457 Don Chaney 491 Richard Jefferson
424 Larry Drew 458 Satch Sanders 492 Hedo Turkoglu
425 Ben Gordon 459 Nate McMillan 493 Mike Bantom
426 Jason Terry 460 Lucious Allen 494 Terry Tyler
427 Vinnie Johnson 461 Bob Netolicky 495 Steve Mix
428 Marvin Webster 462 Bob Kauffman 496 Lionel Simmons
429 Andrew Bogut 463 Joe Caldwell 497 Gerald Wallace
430 Emeka Okafor 464 Red Robbins 498 Quintin Richardson
431 Lonnie Shelton 465 Cincy Powell 499 Michael Brooks
432 Larry Smith 466 Rich Jones 500 Christian Laettner
433 Jay Vincent 467 Steve Jones
434 Greg Ballard 468 Mel Hutchins

189- James Jones? Presumably the ABA's Jimmy Jones. Using Jimmy would be less ambiguous and more in line with what people generally called him (and more in line with your own usage of popular names e.g. Magic, Penny, Cowboy, Mookie, Hot Rod, Sweetwater, Truck, Satch, Hedo, Peja etc).

Just a suggestion.
MW
 
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby Need To Argue » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:36 pm

Current players moving up is a common occurance on our lists. I usually am more on the side of caution. It is my Geoff Petrie impulse. He was a player who was destined for stardom, but had a shortened career. So if I tend to hold back promoting a player as an all-time great until they are on the downside and we have seen their peaks like Dirk and Kidd, then that is that caution impulse. I am having the reverse effect on Wade right now, where I may have put him too high too soon. I added a lot of current players on the backend and will see where they land. Do I believe Kevin Durant is the 404th best player? No, he will be much higher, but I want to see him play some more before annointing him this or that.
Dirk moved up quite a bit after seeing a lot more of him while Kidd moved up a bit after seeing less of him. I'll explain that. When Jason was on the Nets, I got to see a lot of him, but I also saw the overrating of him. Comparisons to Clyde never made sense to me. I saw him more as a Slater Martin or Andy Phillip type though not as in control. After going back to Dallas I saw him more like Lenny Wilkens who did so much on the court that would go unnoticed. I see that again on the Knicks, yes he is older and not the same player anymore, but he is probably at his smartest now and the calming influence that is needed with some of the recklessness on the court around him.
Bill Bradley was in my top hundred barely and now with some additions he got bumped out. Not so drastic, but K.C. Jones was different. The guy who reminds me of most of K.C. was Jerry Sloan and that was where I moved him.

These moves had nothing to do with strength of position or equality. Just two current players moving up after being precautious and one older player moving down more to where he should have been.

The James Jones was Jimmy, but when I was adding his name I was coming off a past blast after looking at old basketball cards. Simple, but memorable mistake. Gets me everytime, start looking at cards from our past and then notice how many clock strikes you somehow missed.

If I missed anything else just say so.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby MW » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:56 pm

Largest differences between NTA's new list and Slam's 500

Not included are those that weren't on Slam's main list becasue of criteria differences (players needed 5 years in the NBA whilst it was called the NBA, so many pioneers who played in it's predecessors are out as are primarily ABA guys as are the tragic likes of Stokes and Petrovic).

NTA Higher
Clifford Ray NTA 231, Slam 485
Red Holzman NTA 263, Slam Unranked
Rickey Green NTA 277, Slam Unranked
Tom Owens NTA 284, Slam Unranked
Reggie Williams NTA 276, Slam 491
Antonio McDyess NTA 175, Slam 372
Kevin Duckworth NTA 304, Slam 496
Jim Paxson NTA 262, Slam 442
Mark Eaton NTA 202, Slam 379
Chuck Person NTA 184, Slam 360

remainder of top 10 NTA of whom Slam left unranked
Herb Williams NTA 348
Rick Mahorn NTA 352
Neal Walk NTA 354
Dennis Scott NTA 360
Kevin Grevey NTA 361
Tom Henderson NTA 363
Willie Anderson NTA 367

Slam Higher
Ron Artest/Meta World Peace Slam 140, NTA 447
Rudy LaRusso Slam 145, NTA 440
Joe Caldwell Slam 185, NTA 463
Don Ohl Slam 207, NTA 473
Jason Richardson Slam 230, NTA 485
Kevin Porter Slam 112, NTA 364
Wayne Embry Slam 203, NTA 443
Doug Christie Slam 258, NTA 486
Steve Francis Slam 228, NTA 450
Michael Cooper Slam 137, NTA 359

Top 10 Slam whom NTA left unranked
Donald "Slick" Watts Slam 313
Danny Granger Slam 332
Jameer Nelson Slam 346
Al Jefferson Slam 347
Tyrone Bogues Slam 350
Monta Ellis Slam 353
Jalen Rose Slam 363
Scott Skiles Slam 364
Stephen Jackson Slam 373
Lloyd Neal Slam 388

100+ difference between players in one top 100
Dennis Rodman Slam 48, NTA 196
Tracy McGrady Slam 97, NTA 206
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby Mike Goodman » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:01 pm

455 of NTA's Top 500 are also in my top 660.
NTA ranks a number of players -- about 40? -- from long ago, before many stats were kept, so they aren't in my lists.

My highest ranked career that NTA does not rank is Josh Smith of Atlanta. He's in my top 200.
In the 200-300 range: Kirilenko, Jason Richardson, Stephen Jackson, Brad Miller, Mehmet Okur, Donyell Marshall, Jalen Rose, PJ Brown, Gar Heard, Joe Graboski, Jack Coleman.

I made a formula to compare rankings, call them R1 and R2.
R12 = (R1-R2)/(R1+R2)
That is, it's the ratio of the difference in rank to the average of the two.

Of players ranked in both lists, those favored by RTA relative to Mike G:
Code: Select all
m/a   argu    M     player 
.75     7     1    Michael Jordan
.74    34     5    Karl Malone
.73    26     4    Shaquille O'Neal
.68   206    39    Tracy McGrady
.67   386    77    Lamar Odom
.64     9     2    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
.63   163    37    Chris Webber
.61   301    74    Shawn Marion
.60    40    10    Kevin Garnett
.60   339    86    Carlos Boozer
Pretty clear that I give more credit to modern careers.
Now those most favored by NTA:
Code: Select all
m/a    argu    M      player   
-.78    27    220    Pete Maravich
-.76    30    225    Nate Archibald
-.69     2     11    Bill Russell
-.68    23    122    Willis Reed
-.65    85    396    Slater Martin
-.63     5     22    Oscar Robertson
-.62    39    167    Dave Bing
-.61    42    173    Bill Sharman
-.59    45    176    Earl Monroe
-.58   107    405    Bill Bradley
-.58    86    323    Dick McGuire
Mostly oldtimers -- and guards -- are favored by NTA
`
36% of all statistics are wrong
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby MW » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:10 pm

Mike Goodman wrote:455 of NTA's Top 500 are also in my top 660.
NTA ranks a number of players -- about 40? -- from long ago, before many stats were kept, so they aren't in my lists.

My highest ranked career that NTA does not rank is Josh Smith of Atlanta. He's in my top 200.
In the 200-300 range: Kirilenko, Jason Richardson, Stephen Jackson, Brad Miller, Mehmet Okur, Donyell Marshall, Jalen Rose, PJ Brown, Gar Heard, Joe Graboski, Jack Coleman.

I made a formula to compare rankings, call them R1 and R2.
R12 = (R1-R2)/(R1+R2)
That is, it's the ratio of the difference in rank to the average of the two.

Of players ranked in both lists, those favored by RTA relative to Mike G:
Code: Select all
m/a   argu    M     player 
.75     7     1    Michael Jordan
.74    34     5    Karl Malone
.73    26     4    Shaquille O'Neal
.68   206    39    Tracy McGrady
.67   386    77    Lamar Odom
.64     9     2    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
.63   163    37    Chris Webber
.61   301    74    Shawn Marion
.60    40    10    Kevin Garnett
.60   339    86    Carlos Boozer
Pretty clear that I give more credit to modern careers.
Now those most favored by NTA:
Code: Select all
m/a    argu    M      player   
-.78    27    220    Pete Maravich
-.76    30    225    Nate Archibald
-.69     2     11    Bill Russell
-.68    23    122    Willis Reed
-.65    85    396    Slater Martin
-.63     5     22    Oscar Robertson
-.62    39    167    Dave Bing
-.61    42    173    Bill Sharman
-.59    45    176    Earl Monroe
-.58   107    405    Bill Bradley
-.58    86    323    Dick McGuire
Mostly oldtimers -- and guards -- are favored by NTA

Other notes on those favoured by NTA (relative to your rankings)
Maravich, Reed, Archibald and to a perhaps lesser degree Bing and Monroe had careers damaged by injury. A difference in criteria is probably the reason for difference here. Mike is measuring output, wheras NTA with sufficient peak performance (so Walton, Sabonis and Derek Smith don't benefit so much) and gutsy effort after (if at a lower level) is more legacy/peak based.

NTA favoured list skews towards low % shooters. Certainly in absolute terms, though when accounting for era (and position) Sharman and Robertson were elite shooters. Still there are no 50% shooters in this set.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y5=1961
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... 01&y6=1977

Mike's list with the possible exception (of the top of my head) of Chris Webber, look like relatively high efficiency scorers (McGrady less so from the field, but at least at his peak he made a living at the ft line). Whether the difference in %s is a cause or effect of the disparity in ratings isn't obvious though (as Mike notes his favoured players list is big man oriented).

Also the older era players will tend have had shorter careers and for 60s and earlier guys played less games giving less opportunity to accumulate stats / ewins (though Russell and Robertson did play pretty hefty minutes).
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby Mike Goodman » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:39 pm

Of the 50 players most heavily favored by NTA (need to argue), just 10 started their careers after 1975:
Code: Select all
m/a    NTA    M
-.49    69   202   Joe Dumars
-.35   202   423   Mark Eaton
-.45    15    40   Isiah Thomas
-.34   141   284   Bill Cartwright
-.50     3     9   Larry Bird
-.47    59   162   Sidney Moncrief
-.34   154   312   Mike Mitchell
-.38   106   236   MichaelRay Richardson
-.43   133   332   Otis Birdsong
-.51    73   227   David Thompson
Now we have a curious mix of more "modern" players that my rankings don't rank nearly as highly.
Several of these, too, had rather short careers. Michael Ray wasn't derailed by injuries but by drugs. A couple of others, too, I think.

Equally curious to me are the oldtimers that I rank higher than NTA. From the 100 I favor the most, only 10 started their pro career before 1983:
Code: Select all
m/a   NTA    M
.35   142    68   Larry Nance
.29   427   235   Vinnie Johnson
.33   155    78   Alvan Adams
.24   309   190   Mickey Johnson
.33    67    34   Artis Gilmore
.38    98    44   George McGinnis
.64     9     2   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
.46   376   138   Bill Bridges
.28   440   245   Rudy LaRusso
.25   180   108   Larry Foust
Foust always gets the shaft. All these guys are bigs but one.
Vinnie gets no respect? Both Isiah and Dumars are on the other list!
`
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby MW » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:56 pm

Also Mike's ratio approach is the better way to show what I was looking at so here's the Slam 500 to NTA ratios

Code: Select all
Slam favours
Michael Jordan   1   7   -6      -0.75
Shaquille O'Neal   4   26   -22      -0.73333
Dennis Rodman   48   196   -148      -0.60656
Jason Kidd   28   99   -71      -0.55906
Kevin Porter   112   364   -252      -0.52941
Ron Artest   140   447   -307      -0.523
Rudy LaRusso   146   440   -294      -0.50171
Michael Cooper   137   359   -222      -0.44758
Willie Naulls   115   289   -174      -0.43069
Joe Caldwell   185   463   -278      -0.42901
Ben Wallace   123   295   -172      -0.41148
Charles Barkley   20   46   -26      -0.39394
Don Ohl   207   473   -266      -0.39118
Wayne Embry   203   443   -240      -0.37152
Tim Duncan   8   17   -9      -0.36
Tracy McGrady   97   206   -109      -0.35974
Jason Richardson   230   485   -255      -0.35664
Bob Rule   181   370   -189      -0.34301
Chris Webber   80   163   -83      -0.34156
Norman Van Lier   114   228   -114      -0.33333
Stephon Marbury   197   392   -195      -0.33107
Shawn Marion   152   301   -149      -0.32892
Steve Francis   228   450   -222      -0.32743
Chris Mullin   88   172   -84      -0.32308
Horace Grant   151   292   -141      -0.31828
Kevin McHale   26   50   -24      -0.31579
Lamar Odom   201   386   -185      -0.31516
Kobe Bryant   10   19   -9      -0.31034
Karl Malone   18   34   -16      -0.30769
Scottie Pippen   27   51   -24      -0.30769
Jimmy Walker   190   358   -168      -0.30657
Doug Christie   258   486   -228      -0.30645
Bill Bridges   200   376   -176      -0.30556
Mitch Richmond   89   167   -78      -0.30469
Guy Rodgers   129   241   -112      -0.3027
Pau Gasol   96   177   -81      -0.2967
Bruce Bowen   247   451   -204      -0.29226
Allen Iverson   40   72   -32      -0.28571
Phil Smith   142   251   -109      -0.27735
Steve Nash   50   87   -37      -0.27007
Gilbert Arenas   183   317   -134      -0.268
Anfernee Hardaway   130   225   -95      -0.26761
Eddie Jones   262   453   -191      -0.26713
Walter Dukes   243   416   -173      -0.26252
Alonzo Mourning   73   124   -51      -0.25888
Ray Scott   219   369   -150      -0.2551
Carmelo Anthony   105   176   -71      -0.25267
Tim Hardaway   87   145   -58      -0.25
Vince Carter   99   165   -66      -0.25
Nick Van Exel   292   483   -191      -0.24645




NTA Favours - in reverse order
Name                Sl     NTA   Diff           Rat
Sidney Moncrief   90   59   31      0.208054   50
Roy Hinson   433   282   151      0.211189   49
Wayman Tisdale   317   203   114      0.219231   48
Tree Rollins   467   299   168      0.219321   47
Juwan Howard   375   240   135      0.219512   46
Paul Westphal   141   90   51      0.220779   45
Jim Chones   339   212   127      0.23049   44
Bill Bradley   172   107   65      0.232975   43
Dan Issel   106   65   41      0.239766   42
Kevin Duckworth   496   304   192      0.24   41
Kevin Loughery   386   236   150      0.241158   40
Byron Scott   326   199   127      0.241905   39
Vlade Divac   277   169   108      0.242152   38
Bill Sharman   70   42   28      0.25   37
Lenny Wilkens   72   43   29      0.252174   36
Otis Thorpe   269   160   109      0.254079   35
Dan Roundfield   266   158   108      0.254717   34
Jim Paxson   442   262   180      0.255682   33
Sam Lacey   304   178   126      0.261411   32
Glen Rice   298   173   125      0.265393   31
Nate Archibald   52   30   22      0.268293   30
James Worthy   58   33   25      0.274725   29
Tom Owens   501   284   217      0.276433   28
Vern Mikkelsen   145   82   63      0.277533   27
Rik Smits   276   156   120      0.277778   26
Michael Ray Richardson   188   106   82      0.278912   25
Reggie Williams   491   276   215      0.280313   24
Rickey Green   501   277   224      0.287918   23
Jerry West   11   6   5      0.294118   22
Dave Cowens   44   24   20      0.294118   21
Red Holzman   501   269   232      0.301299   20
Mark Eaton   379   202   177      0.304647   19
Bill Laimbeer   235   125   110      0.305556   18
Marques Johnson   117   62   55      0.307263   17
Xavier McDaniel   281   148   133      0.310023   16
Mike Mitchell   294   154   140      0.3125   15
Clyde Lovellette   170   89   81      0.312741   14
Chuck Person   360   184   176      0.323529   13
Wilt Chamberlain   2   1   1      0.333333   12
Walt Frazier   36   18   18      0.333333   11
Dave DeBusschere   76   38   38      0.333333   10
Bill Cartwright   284   141   143      0.336471   9
Clifford Ray   485   231   254      0.354749   8
Rick Barry   21   10   11      0.354839   7
Antonio McDyess   372   175   197      0.360146   6
Max Zaslofsky   234   109   125      0.364431   5
James Silas   501   227   274      0.376374   4
Pete Maravich   60   27   33      0.37931   3
Frank Ramsey   253   112   141      0.386301   2
Larry Bird   9   3   6      0.5   1

Sorry about the shoddy table formatting

Between the NTA high on relative Mike G eWins list, and the top 11 of this 2nd list (NTA high on relative to Slam) you have the full strength first 5 of the '73 Knicks (Reed, DeBusschere, Bradley, Monroe, Frazier) plus their coach comes in at 18 on this list (he was unranked by Slam but he just fit in their 5 season NBA criteria, so could have been ranked).
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby Mike Goodman » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:34 am

Jack Coleman doesn't make Slam's 2011 Top 500 players list, nor NTA's list.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... atest.html

Royals teammate Arnie Risen is #150 on NTA's list and 216th on Slam's. One man is recognized and the other is not, even though they had similar careers.
http://bkref.com/tiny/2k3Fy

Both guys played to age 33, through the 1957-58 season.
I've got Coleman at #254, Risen 263; this is based only on their years 1952-58.


Rodman is #3 on the MW list of those not favored by BTA vs Slam.
Slam has the Worm at 48 !
I suspect after BTA's pre-statistics guys are subtracted, his (196) and my (179) assessment of Rodman are about the same.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby MW » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:10 pm

Mike Goodman wrote:Jack Coleman doesn't make Slam's 2011 Top 500 players list, nor NTA's list.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... atest.html

Royals teammate Arnie Risen is #150 on NTA's list and 216th on Slam's. One man is recognized and the other is not, even though they had similar careers.
http://bkref.com/tiny/2k3Fy

Both guys played to age 33, through the 1957-58 season.
I've got Coleman at #254, Risen 263; this is based only on their years 1952-58.


Rodman is #3 on the MW list of those not favored by BTA vs Slam.
Slam has the Worm at 48 !
I suspect after BTA's pre-statistics guys are subtracted, his (196) and my (179) assessment of Rodman are about the same.

Rodman is one of those who has a pretty high range on these listings. He has been as high as 30 (Elliot Kalb) and frequently has occupied top 50s (Lacy Banks 42, Athlon 47 and the last 2 Slam lists at 48). Yet by most metrics (some exceptions http://skepticalsports.com/?p=1397 http://wagesofwins.com/2006/12/04/on-jo ... man-again/ ) Rodman doesn't rank as an all time elite player. And by awards and accolades (2xDpoY, 7 All-D Teams, but only two all NBA 3rd teams and just 2 ASG appearances) Rodman looks out of place in the top 50 or indeed top 100). For my taste his disruptiveness and his liability status on offense when he committed to chasing rebounds (which made his offensive boards less valuable than those who could quickly convert them into an easy two) mean I'd tend to agree with those present that he belongs at the lower end of rankings.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby Mike Goodman » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:43 pm

The Hall of Fame meter at b-r.com has Rodman at 58%, which is in the "sure, why not?" range. He's #101 on that meter.

LTA should correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he has 40 G, 40 F, and 20 C in his top 100. Not sure about subsequent 100's.
This is a tradition of some list-builders; the simplest examples being allstar games and all-league teams.
Taking that approach further, one might build a "team" that includes a designated rebounder, to complement all the scorers and passers in the top 50 or 100.

Meanwhile, that Slam list includes just a handful of super-oldtime players that missed the statistical cutoff I used: Fulks (64), Davies (133), Pollard (93), and Zaslovsky (234). None of these played beyond 1955.
And since we're referring to the Slam 500 a lot, a reminder that ABA seasons seem not to count, unless a player also had 5+ NBA seasons.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby Need To Argue » Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:14 am

I will look at each section and see where we (myself and Slam) differ. I probably should find a copy of it in order to look at them next to one another. Was it a regular issue or a special one? I have tried reading some of the magazines, but couldn't get past a lot of the rap-type writing. Occasionaly there would be an where are they now types that I enjoyed though.

MW wrote:
NTA Higher
Clifford Ray NTA 231, Slam 485
Red Holzman NTA 263, Slam Unranked
Rickey Green NTA 277, Slam Unranked
Tom Owens NTA 284, Slam Unranked
Reggie Williams NTA 276, Slam 491
Antonio McDyess NTA 175, Slam 372
Kevin Duckworth NTA 304, Slam 496
Jim Paxson NTA 262, Slam 442
Mark Eaton NTA 202, Slam 379
Chuck Person NTA 184, Slam 360
"


Ray and Eaton are always under valued, but their defense was a big part of their teams success. The three unranked I think they may have just forgotten. They ranked Lloyd Neal and not Owens, that seems strange unless the ABA days were what they didn't judge him on. Rickie Green was the beginning of the Jazz success, unfortunately he gets forgotten because Stockton was the next man up. Holzman was a player, but probably not enough in the NBA for them.Williams, Duckworth, Paxson and Person were all strong offensive players who probably belong in between where we have them. McDyess was on target to be better than KG until his injury, but he came back strong eventually though not the same.


remainder of top 10 NTA of whom Slam left unranked
Herb Williams NTA 348
Rick Mahorn NTA 352
Neal Walk NTA 354
Dennis Scott NTA 360
Kevin Grevey NTA 361
Tom Henderson NTA 363
Willie Anderson NTA 367


All good players who could land anywhere from 300 to 700 like many of the current (or recent) players they include. Mahorn just makes guys around him better. I liked his defense and smarts.


Slam Higher
Ron Artest/Meta World Peace Slam 140, NTA 447
Rudy LaRusso Slam 145, NTA 440
Joe Caldwell Slam 185, NTA 463
Don Ohl Slam 207, NTA 473
Jason Richardson Slam 230, NTA 485
Kevin Porter Slam 112, NTA 364
Wayne Embry Slam 203, NTA 443
Doug Christie Slam 258, NTA 486
Steve Francis Slam 228, NTA 450
Michael Cooper Slam 137, NTA 359


Most of these guys belong with the last grouping. The only two definite top 500 guys here are Porter and Cooper. I take Mahorn over Embry on the court, if talking front office then Embry.


Top 10 Slam whom NTA left unranked
Donald "Slick" Watts Slam 313
Danny Granger Slam 332
Jameer Nelson Slam 346
Al Jefferson Slam 347
Tyrone Bogues Slam 350
Monta Ellis Slam 353
Jalen Rose Slam 363
Scott Skiles Slam 364
Stephen Jackson Slam 373
Lloyd Neal Slam 388

The current guys all would get considered especially Ellis. Slick Watts just wasn't that good. Scott Skiles was more of a John Mengelt type.


100+ difference between players in one top 100
Dennis Rodman Slam 48, NTA 196
Tracy McGrady Slam 97, NTA 206



I actually think I may have Rodman too high. It may be cool to overrate guys like Rodman and Watts, but the eye test disagrees. Rodman and even Wilkes were reaches as far as HOF players.
I'll try to keep up with all the comments.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby MW » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:34 pm

Need To Argue wrote:I will look at each section and see where we (myself and Slam) differ. I probably should find a copy of it in order to look at them next to one another. Was it a regular issue or a special one? I have tried reading some of the magazines, but couldn't get past a lot of the rap-type writing. Occasionaly there would be an where are they now types that I enjoyed though.

It was a special edition released in 2011
Image
The urban influence is not present in this edition and hasn't really been on my radar for a while. Whilst only an on again off again reader, I'd say it was substantially more "street" before the turn of the century.
It contents are a couple of intros, the main list (including potted bios and a picture for each player), and 4 additional lists:
the top 10 ABA guys
The top 10 college players
10 "What if" players
Top 10 you'll see in volume 2.

The first two lists have the subtitle "who didn't play in the NBA or weren't good enough for the top 500" though it would seem that means "didn't play 5 years in the NBA" as Mack Calvin is on the ABA list.

The main list has been linked to by Mike: http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... atest.html

Given that that there is no argument contained for why players are where they are the listing is probably sufficient, but perhaps like me you like having the official paper copy.

The additional lists are
ABA
1) Mel Daniels
2) Mack Calvin
3) Roger Brown
4) Jimmy Jones
5) Ron Boone
6) Willie Wise
7) Donnie Freeman
8 ) Warren Jabali
9) Larry Jones
10)Freddie Lewis

College
1) Bob Kurland
2) Lennie Rosenbluth
3) John Wooden
4) Hank Luisetti
5) Bevo Francis
6) "Hot" Rod Hundley
7) Rick Mount
8 ) "Fly" Williams
9) Steve Alford
10) Travis "Machine Gun"Grant

What if ...
1) Maurice Stokes
2) Len Bias
3) Sherman White
4) Drazen Petrovic
5) Tony Jackson
6) Hank Gathers
7) Wayne Estes
8-10) Ralph Beard, Alex Groza and Bill Spivey

Vol 2
1) Kevin Durant
2) Derrick Rose
3) Rajon Rondo
4) Blake Griffin
5) Kevin Love
6) Russell Westbrook
7) Eric Gordon
8 ) LaMarcus Aldridge
9) Tyreke Evans
10) John Wall
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby MW » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:19 pm

Another angle where Rodman stands http://www.basketballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=727 which itself contains links to two further articles about his standing. These are mainly in the context of "Is he HOF worthy?" but seem relevant. Subjectively I agree with the Pelton/WARP take, that he had most value when he was a low usage, high efficiency offensive player; but less when he was a low-to-tiny usage, crummy efficiency offensive player.

Rodman is one who to a degree makes a nonsense out of attempting to rank players of team game because of course value is highly contextual. Fortunately when he became rebound-centric he always had the scorers (even the late Detroit teams had Dumars, Isiah, Aguirre and Woolridge), but for bad teams without a scoring superstar one suspects that that style of play (if he would play like that for such a team) would hold less value. Does this matter or is it all about what you can do to bring championships? Did this actually help him (bad teams didn't think he had value to them and this combined with personality issues meant poor to middling teams didn't acquire him, so he ended up on contenders and was thus percieved as a winner)?
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby Mike Goodman » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:52 pm

The additional lists are:
ABA
I'm inserting my ranking next to these players, who played mostly or entirely in the ABA.
1) Mel Daniels - 141
2) Mack Calvin - 343
3) Roger Brown - 232
4) Jimmy Jones - 291
5) Ron Boone - 234
6) Willie Wise - 228
7) Donnie Freeman - 498
8 ) Warren Jabali - 409
9) Larry Jones - 462
10)Freddie Lewis - 368

Billy Paultz (159) does not appear on either the main Slam list or this one.
He's #211 in NTA's list.
They also don't have Dave Robisch (369), Ralph Simpson (372), James Silas (398), Jim Eakins (414)

It may be that these players didn't have (other than Paultz) either a sufficient ABA career or NBA career; and they made no provision for combining them.
It also seems that Slam did not distinguish between stars of the early ABA and the later, better ABA.

P.S. -- Gail Goodrich was overlooked on Slam's list. They admitted their error; don't know where they may have inserted him. He continues to be missing from b-r.com's version.
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Re: NBA's 50 greatest players (1996 list) updated?

Postby Mike Goodman » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:02 pm

At this page -- http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... areer.html
I notice Louie Dampier is 5th in ABA Win Shares, after Gilmore, Issel, Erving, and Jimmy Jones.

Also notice the alltime (regular season) Win Shares leaders are updated daily.
Tony Parker is now at #100 all-time. With 89.1 WS total, and 8.3 already this season, we deduce that he started the season with 80.8 WS. That was equal to Bob Dandridge, who is #133.
Dwight Howard started the year at #105 and has passed 18 players to reach #87.

Jason Terry started at #97 and has passed Moncrief, Hersey Hawkins, Cousy, Cummings, Mark Jackson, Neil Johnston, Sam Jones, and KJ.
Andre Miller started the year just ahead of Terry, and has passed all those guys plus Chris Mullin, to #86.
Dwyane Wade started just ahead of those 2 and has also passed Bobby Jones , Ben Wallace, and Lenny Wilkens.
Chris Paul started just behind all those guys, and has surged past the lot of them, plus Divac and McGrady, to #79

Elton Brand has passed Greer, Cheeks, and Baylor, to #68
Pau Gasol was even with Otis Thorpe at #63, but has passed Mikan, Arizin, and Hornacek.
Vince Carter has moved past Perkins, Laimbeer, Beaty, and the 5 in the line above.

Shawn Marion has eclipsed Frazier, Howell, and Gervin, to #48
Billups has bumped Buck Williams from the 43 slot.
Nash has limped past Ewing to #37.

Paul Pierce has surged past Havlicek, Dantley and Drexler to #31
Kidd is also past Dantley and Drexler, plus Pettit, to 29th
Ray Allen also passed Pettit to #28

LeBron James, with 12.7 Win Shares already, is still at his peak. And this year, he's passed Dantley, Drexler, Pierce, Pettit, Kidd, Allen, Schayes, Payton, and Bird.

Kobe has passed West, Olajuwon, and Russell, to #17
Nowitzki hasn't passed anyone and will soon lose his spot to Kobe.
Duncan has surged past Barkley, Moses, Robinson, and Erving; and is about one good game from Shaq at #9.
Garnett already passed Shaq and may reach Oscar (#7) or Gilmore (6) by season's end.

These are regular seasons only, and ABA WinShares are counted the same as NBA.
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