Players who were drafted more than once

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Postby MCT » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:14 pm

Robert Bradley wrote:Hank Finkel transferred from St. Peter's (NJ) to Dayton University in 1962, sitting out the 1962-63 season.

rlee wrote:Much of Finkel's convoluted history is described here:

http://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=719

In the past, I had assumed that Elgin Baylor graduated from high school in 1952 -- even though he didn't start college until 1954 -- based on the fact that he was drafted in 1956. From the discussion earlier in this thread, however, that now seems to be incorrect. It appears that he graduated from high school in 1954, and was therefore not actually eligible in 1956.

Along the same lines, I'm wondering what year Henry Finkel actually graduated from high school. Based on the fact that he was drafted in 1964, I've been assuming 1960, even though he didn't start college until 1961. Does anyone know for certain? If he did graduate in 1960, what was he doing during the 1960-61 school year? Finkel was definitely a junior eligible in 1965, but at this point, in the absence of more definite information, I'd be inclined to classify his status in 1964 as "unclear whether he was really eligible".
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Postby rlee » Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:44 pm

Patrick, does this answer the question?:

"However, the college coach's worst nightmare was about to rear it's ugly head: The NBA came calling. Finkel had played one year for St. Peter's and sat out one year before coming to Dayton. Having sat out one year because of the transfer, his sophomore year was the fourth after his entrance into college, which made him eligible for the draft. Losing someone with Henry's abilities could bring a quick end to Donoher's coaching career. "His mom wanted him to stay in college and he loved it here, so he came back and played for me my first year. He got drafted again after that year, but still came back. If it hadn't been for Henry, I probably would have only had a one-year career. I only had a one-year contract. This job warranted someone with more experience.""

The above is from here:

http://www.flyersports.com/cgi/coranto/ ... EZQluVjguX
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Postby MCT » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:26 am

Ray, it does provide some corrorboration that Finkel was really eligible in 1964. The article is very clear that Finkel was eligible in '64, '65 and '66, and the author seems to be basing this on first-hand recollections (as opposed to an assumption that if modern reference sources say Finkel was drafted in a particular year, then he must have been eligible). The exact chronology is still a little fuzzy, though:

"Finkel had played one year for St. Peter's and sat out one year before coming to Dayton. Having sat out one year because of the transfer, his sophomore year was the fourth after his entrance into college, which made him eligible for the draft.

One (year at St. Peter's) plus one (year sitting out after transferring), plus one (his sophomore year at Dayton) only equals three, even though the excerpt above desribes it as "the fourth year after his entrance into college". There is still a year (apparently 1960-61, before he was at St. Peter's) that is unaccounted for.
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Postby MCT » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:40 am

Here are some additional players I've found, from the '70s and '80s, who were drafted twice. None of them went on to play in the NBA or ABA. I've included Kresimir Cosic for good measure:

Gregg Northington, Alabama State – Knicks 2nd round 1971, Lakers 3rd round 1972. Per The Draft Review, Northington took a redshirt year in 1968-69 after transferring into Alabama State from a junior college.

Steve Turner, Vanderbilt – Sonics 11th round 1972, Celtics 10th round 1973.

Kresimir Cosic, Brigham Young – Blazers 10th round 1972, Lakers 5th round 1973. Cosic was discussed in an earlier thread which led to the current one. It appears that Portland was taking the position that Cosic should be treated as a junior eligible based on his age (since he didn’t attend high school in the U.S., it’s not clear how, or even if, the conventional application of the junior eligible rule would come into play for him), against the backdrop of it seeming unlikely that Cosic would sign with an NBA team anyway.

Mike Stewart, Santa Clara – Bulls 6th round 1972, Celtics 7th round 1973.

Randy Knoll, Marshall – Hawks 6th round 1972, Braves 5th round 1973.

Jeff Dawson, Illinois – Warriors 8th round 1973, Kings 9th round 1974.

Sam McCants, Oral Roberts – Bulls 8th round 1974, Suns 4th round 1975. McCants is another one of those convoluted cases. Per The Draft Review, he was enrolled at various times at both Florida State and Oral Roberts, but played only one year of college basketball, which was 1973-74 at Oral Roberts. McCants’ first year of college, at Florida State, is shown as 1971-72. But he would have had to graduate from high school in 1970 in order to be draft eligible in 1974.

Freeman Blade, Eastern Montana – 76ers 8th round 1975, 76ers 4th round 1976. Per The Draft Review, Blade sat out the 1973-74 season after transferring from Anderson (IN) to Eastern Montana.

Bobby Lee Hurt, Alabama – Warriors 2nd round 1985, Warriors 6th round 1986. Hurt was a senior in 1985, but apparently could not come to terms with the Warriors. He retained his amateur status and was eligible to be drafted again in 1986, when the Warriors selected him for a second time (purely out of spite?).
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Postby rlee » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:45 am

Patrick,

I read it as one year out of school after leaving St Peter's & then another year out of action as a transfer to Dayton.
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Postby MCT » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:43 pm

Ray, I get what you're saying -- maybe the intended meaning is that he played for St. Peter's in 1960-61, was out of school in 1961-62, then was at Dayton in 1962-63 but didn't play, then finally played his sophomore year in 1963-64 (his fourth year out of high school). That's a possibility, but it creates a few issues:

--The Draft Review has Finkel playing as a freshman at St. Peter's in 1961-62. (Incidentally, it also shows that Finkel attended Hunter College in 1962-63 but did not play basketball there.)

--I don't think there would have been any need for Finkel to sit out a year when he arrived at Dayton, if he hadn't played college basketball the previous season.

--The NCAA has a rule that requires players at Division I schools to use their four years of eligibility within five years of the date they first attended college (the date they first attended any college of any kind -- it doesn't matter if it's the same school they attend now, if it was a Division I school, if it was a two-year or four-year school, if they only attended it very briefly, or if they didn't play sports there). This rule explains why Larry Bird and Sam Bowie each only played three years of college basketball. Each enrolled in college immediately out of high school, and played college basketball in three of the next five seasons, missing two seasons for whatever reasons. At the end of their fifth season out of high school, even though they had only played three years, they were not eligible to return to their current school and play a fourth year, because five years had elapsed since they had first attended college. I'm not certain that this rule was in effect back in the '60s, but assuming it was, if Finkel had started college in 1960, in the spring of 1965 he would have been in the same position as Bird in 1979 or Bowie in 1984. He would not have been eligible to return to Dayton for the 1965-66 season.
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Postby MCT » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:53 pm

MCT wrote:Bayard Forrest – Suns 3rd round 1975, Sonics 2nd round 1976.

Robert Bradley wrote:Bayard Forrest's playing career -

Prescott (AZ) High School 1969-70
Brandon (OR) High School 1970-72
Grand Canyon College 1972-76
Athletes in Action 1976-77
Phoenix Suns 1977-80 (sat out entire 1979-80 season)

I don't see any obvious explanation why he would have been available in the 1975 draft as a junior eligible or hardship case. (BTW - I live about a mile away from Grand Canyon University, and Prescott High School and my school, Sunnyslope High School, were in the Skyline Division together when I was there from 1977-81)

An oddity with Forrest is that he was almost eligible for the 1977 draft as well, so he could have been drafted three years in a row (though it seems unclear whether he was really eligible in '75). As Robert alludes to, Forrest did not sign with the Sonics after they drafted him in 1976, spending the 1976-77 season playing for Athletes in Action. Because he had retained his amateur status, he was on track to be eligible for the draft again in 1977. Late in the 1976-77 season, however, the Sonics traded his rights to the Suns, and the Suns subsequently signed him to a contract for the 1977-78 season.
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Postby rlee » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:23 pm

Patrick,
I don't know for sure when Finkel played frosh ball, but here are a couple things to consider:

-The Draft Review freshman year listing may just be an assumption made by backing up from his subsequent history

- NCAA transfer rules require the transferee to have an "academic year in residence" at the new institution before becoming eligible to play - being out of school for a year would not satisfy that requirement.
Last edited by rlee on Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Players who were drafted more than once

Postby MCT » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:26 pm

MCT wrote:The ABA seems to have had its own version of the junior eligible rule, although I’m not sure if they used that terminology; such players are shown as “redshirts” on ABA draft lists. The ABA rule worked differently from the contemporary NBA rule: if an ABA team drafted a player as a junior eligible, they generally held his rights permanently, with no opportunity for the player to be drafted again after his senior year (there was actually an early version of the NBA rule that was similar). As a result, junior eligibles were not typically eligible for the ABA Draft more than once.

Of those players we have identified as junior eligibles, most were drafted by the ABA only in their junior eligible/"redshirt" year, in accordance with the above. Several were drafted only in their senior year, however, most from the first couple of years of the ABA's existence. It may that if a player wasn't drafted as a junior, he could then be drafted as a senior.

While not directly on point, I know of two players who went on to play in the NBA or ABA who were drafted by the ABA (but not the NBA) only as junior eligibles/"redshirts", then by the NBA (but not the ABA) only as fifth-year seniors. The difference in how the rule worked between the two leagues undoubtedly accounts for this. Because an ABA team drafting a junior eligible got the player's rights permanently, whereas an NBA team only had his rights until the start of the next school year, such a player may have been more attractive as a junior in the ABA Draft than in the NBA Draft. As a senior, by contrast, the player's permanent rights were now up for grabs on the NBA side, while he was no longer eligible for the ABA Draft. The two players are:

Swen Nater -- junior eligible in 1972 because he had sat out the 1970-71 season as a redshirt after transferring into UCLA from a junior college. Selected by the Floridians on the 7th round of the 1972 ABA Draft, but not selected in that year's NBA Draft (Nater's ABA rights were acquired by the Squires in the dispersal draft held after the Floridians folded). In 1973, as a fifth-year senior, Nater was selected by the Bucks on the 1st round of the NBA Draft. He ultimately signed with the Squires.

Bobby Wilson -- marked as a "reshirt" in 1973, although I'm not entirely sure why he would have been; The Draft Review shows that he played the 1970-71 and 1971-72 seasons at two different junior colleges, then played 1972-73 and 1973-74 at Wichita State. Selected by the Pacers on the 9th round of the 1973 ABA Draft, but not selected in that year's NBA Draft. In 1974, as a senior, Wilson was selected by the Bulls on the 3rd round of the NBA Draft. He ultimately signed with the Bulls.

Looking over a list of ABA draft picks marked "redshirt", I've found three additional players who follow a similar pattern, but I have no details of these players' circumstances. None of them went on to play in the NBA or ABA:

Greg Cluess of St. John's, drafted by Nets in 1971 ABA Draft (20th round), by Knicks in 1972 NBA Draft (6th round).

Fred DeVaughn of Westmont, drafted by Floridians in 1972 ABA Draft (round not specified, but appears to have been very late in the draft), by Rockets in 1973 NBA Draft (7th round).

John Johnson of the University of Denver, drafted by Colonels in 1973 ABA Draft (9th round), by Bucks in 1974 NBA Draft (5th round).
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Postby MCT » Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:44 pm

rlee wrote:Patrick,
I don't know for sure when Finkel played frosh ball, but here are a couple things to consider:

-The Draft Review freshman year listing may just be an assumption made by backing up from his subsequent history

That thought had occured to me, too. It seems that there often isn't much documentation of who played on freshman/JV teams back in that era, so there may be cases where Matt just had to make an educated guess. Finkel not starting college until 1961 would line up nicely with his playing at Dayton through the 1965-66 season, though, if the current five-year rule was in effect back then.

rlee wrote:-NCAA transfer rules require the transferee to have an "academic year in residence" at the new institution before becoming eligible to play - being out of school for a year would not satisfy that requirement.

I didn't realize that -- so if he was completely out of school for a while, it would make sense that there would be a two-year gap between his time at St. Peter's and his time at Dayton, likely placing him at St. Peter's in 1960-61.

Any idea whether the five-year rule was in effect back then, or when it may have been instituted? I'm pretty sure Dayton was Division I back in those days -- they played in the NCAA Division I tournament in each of Finkel's last two years there ('65 and '66), then made it all the way to the Division I finals the following year ('67).

At this point I think I'm inclined to classify Finkel as "probably a junior eligible in '64, definitely a junior eligible in '65, some elements of chronology unclear".
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Mystery solved

Postby rlee » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:03 pm

Mystery solved: I called and spoke with Henry Finkel: he was h.s. Class of '60 and he took one year off from school after leaving St Peter's before transferring to Dayton.
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Postby Robert Bradley » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:53 pm

John Baum attended Pierce Junior College in Philadelphia in 1964-65, would this make 1965-66 a transfer year rather than his freshman year at Temple? Is there any evidence of him playing on the freshman team in 1965-66?
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Postby rlee » Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:37 pm

The NCAA rules are different for transfers from J.C.s - i.e., no requirement of "academic year in residence" at the transferred-to 4 year institution if the player is a "qualifier" based on his academic record at the two-year institution.
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Postby Robert Bradley » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:37 pm

rlee wrote:The NCAA rules are different for transfers from J.C.s - i.e., no requirement of "academic year in residence" at the transferred-to 4 year institution if the player is a "qualifier" based on his academic record at the two-year institution.


that's true, but wouldn't that have counted as his freshman year? maybe he was an academic redshirt for a year?
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Postby MCT » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:46 pm

The Draft Review has varsity stats for Baum at Temple in 1966-67, 1967-68 and 1968-69. It shows Baum on Temple's freshman team in 1965-66; there are no stats shown, however, so this could be another "educated guess" on Matt's part in the absence of any better information being available.

If Baum played on the Temple varsity for three years, he must have only played one year of college basketball before that. If that one year was at Pierce in 1964-65, he presumably didn't play anywhere in 1965-66, whatever the reason. (Conversely, if he didn't actually play at Pierce, he probably played on Temple's freshman team in 1965-66.) That Baum attended Pierce in 1964-65 -- regardless of whether he played basketball there -- would suggest that he graduated from high school in 1964, providing solid evidence that he was a junior eligible in 1968.

It is my understanding that junior college players are not normally required to sit out a year when they transfer to a four-year school, as Ray noted. In this thread, though, we've encountered a number of players who appear to have done so (Dick Garmaker, Elgin Baylor, Harvey Catchings, Swen Nater, now possibly Baum). I'm wondering if some college coaches in those days just liked to have transfers take a redshirt year to get acclimated to the school/program.
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Postby MCT » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:56 pm

Robert Bradley wrote:Steve Patterson played his freshman year at UCLA (1966-67), and then redshirted his sophomore year (1967-68) -

http://www.uclabruins.com/sports/m-bask ... 04aaa.html

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Gh ... hirt&hl=en

The Draft Review has Patterson on UCLA's freshman team in 1967-68, but this is likely another "educated guess in the absence of any better information being available" (no stats are provided). The article linked above at Google News seems pretty clear that Patterson was on the freshman team in 1966-67, then redshirted in 1967-68.

We've encountered a number of UCLA players from the late '60s or early '70s who took redshirt years under circumstances where no particular reason for doing so has been identifed (Patterson, Edgar Lacy, Mike Lynn, Swen Nater, Andre McCarter). Was UCLA's program so deep in those days that they just had guys sit out for a year based on future need? "We're all set for big men for the next two years, but we'll need help after Lew Alcindor graduates, so let's redshirt Patterson, then we'll have him for two whole years after Alcindor is gone."
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Re: Mystery solved

Postby MCT » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:01 pm

rlee wrote:Mystery solved: I called and spoke with Henry Finkel: he was h.s. Class of '60 and he took one year off from school after leaving St Peter's before transferring to Dayton.

Ray, thanks for going above and beyond on this one.

You don't happen to know Bayard Forrest, Ben Warley, Sam McCants or Steve Hamilton, do you? :)
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Postby rlee » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:03 pm

The current rule re: transferring from 2-year school (don't know when it went into effect) is that one does not have to have sit out an "academic year in residence" if he/she is a "qualifier" by virtue of having:

-completed a term (semester or quarter) at the 2-year school. (summer school does not count)

-earned an average of 12-quarter or -semester credits that are transferable toward a degree at the 4-year transferred to school

-earned a GPA of at least 2.0 in the transferrable credit hours

If any of the above are absent, then the "academic year in residence" requirement applies.
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Postby rlee » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:08 pm

Steve Hamilton and Ben Warley have each passed away.

As to the others, no, I do not know them but I would certainly be willing to call them if I can locate contact #s.

What questions should I ask?
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Postby Bruce Kitts » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:38 pm

Elgin Baylor did not attend a junior college. He attended College of Idaho, a four-year school for one year and then transferred to Seattle U. He sat out one year before playing for Seattle U -- which I believe was for academic reasons, unless there was a transfer rule for players going from an NAIA school to an NCAA school.
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Postby Robert Bradley » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:56 pm

I did find a newspaper article from January 3, 1958 which referred to Baylor as a junior.

So just for clarification sake (the seasons for his last two seasons at www.basketball-reference.com should be 1956-57 and 1957-58) -

1953-54 - Sr. - Springarn H.S.; Washington, DC

1954-55 - Fr. - College of Idaho
1955-56 - So. - Seattle University (redshirt/transfer season)
1956-57 - So. - Seattle University
1957-58 - Jr. - Seattle, University

1958-59 - Minneapolis Lakers, NBA


I have also found an article about his transfer, dated May 27, 1955, which refers to him losing a season due to his transfer from the College of Idaho to Seattle University.

A September 27, 1955 article mentions that Baylor had registered at the College of Idaho and had begun to attend classes, with the expectation being that he would play for the College of Idaho in 1955-56.

A December 3, 1955 article gives the details of Baylor's transfer to Seattle - he would sit out the 1955-56 season, with three years of eligibility remaining for the regular season and two season of eligibility for post-season tournament play.

He spent the 1955-56 season playing for the AAU's Westside Ford club in Seattle.
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Postby rlee » Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:31 pm

John Baum attended Peirce (not Pierce) Junior College (previously known as Peirce College of Business) in Philadelphia. In "Palestra Pandemonium. a history of the Big 5". it is told (page 53) that Baum had no interest in basketball at West Philadelphia h.s. Instead, he concentrated on soccer and baseball. He had turned down an offer to sign a minor league contract with the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1965. That fall, he enrolled at Peirce when he quickly emerged as the team;s best player. One night Peirce played at Phila. Textile. Temple's frosh basketball coach Skippy Wilson was monlighting as a referee. "Skippy had never seen me play", Baum recalls. "He was probably saying to himself 'Who is this guy with all this raw talent jumping over everybody and doing real well?' So during the game whenever there was a stoppage of play, Wilson came up behind me and asked me 'Who are you, are you interested in college, did you take the SATs, what's your major?'
I'm wondering why is this official asking me all these questions. I had no idea who he was. So when the game was over, I was in the shower and I got a message from the manager who said 'there's an assistant coach from Temple here to see you.' And I thought to myself 'that's strange'. Then I said, 'ok tell him I'll be right out.' And the manager said 'no, he's coming in'. It was Skippy Wilson. He came right in and took a shower with me. By the time I walked out of the shower, we had an appointment with (Temple head coach) Harry Litwack. And when I got out of the shower, I had another message from the manager that Bucky Harris, the Coach of Textile, wanted to see me. After I got dressed, I told Mr. Harris
that I was scheduled to meet coach Litwack tomorrow. And when he heard that, he just ended the conversation and said, 'Thanks but if you're going to meet coach Litwack, we have no shot at you.'"
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Postby MCT » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:32 am

rlee wrote:Steve Hamilton and Ben Warley have each passed away.

As to the others, no, I do not know them but I would certainly be willing to call them if I can locate contact #s.

What questions should I ask?

I was more-or-less being facetious, but I really should've checked to verify that all of those guys were still living. To anyone associated with Mr. Hamilton or Mr. Warley who should come across this, no disrespect was intended.

If you did have the chance to talk to the others, or anyone else discussed in this thread, you could ask them something along the lines of the following: "We are compiling a list of players who were selected in the NBA Draft more than once, and attempting to determine why these players were drafted multiple times. For example, many players were drafted as juniors under a procedure that no longer exists called the junior eligible rule, which applied to players who had been out of high school for four years but still had college eligibility remaining. We have noticed that you were drafted twice, but have not been able to determine why. We would be interested in any information or recollection you might have about being drafted, particularly related to how you came to be drafted twice. Any assistance you could provide would be appreciated."

Based on what we've been able to track down on the high school and college careers of Forrest and McCants, it appears that they had graduated from high school three years before the year they were first drafted, so they don't appear to have been junior eligibles. It may be that they weren't actually eligible at all.
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Postby MCT » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:53 am

Bruce Kitts wrote:Elgin Baylor did not attend a junior college. He attended College of Idaho, a four-year school for one year and then transferred to Seattle U. He sat out one year before playing for Seattle U -- which I believe was for academic reasons, unless there was a transfer rule for players going from an NAIA school to an NCAA school.

Bruce, you're really exposing my lack of knowledge about all things Baylor. I don't know where I got the idea that College of Idaho was a two-year school.

I don't know whether players transferring from an NAIA school to a NCAA school have to sit out a year.

Robert Bradley wrote:I did find a newspaper article from January 3, 1958 which referred to Baylor as a junior.

So just for clarification sake (the seasons for his last two seasons at www.basketball-reference.com should be 1956-57 and 1957-58) -

1953-54 - Sr. - Springarn H.S.; Washington, DC

1954-55 - Fr. - College of Idaho
1955-56 - So. - Seattle University (redshirt/transfer season)
1956-57 - So. - Seattle University
1957-58 - Jr. - Seattle, University

1958-59 - Minneapolis Lakers, NBA

Others sources also show Baylor playing at Seattle in 1956-57 and 1957-58; I think showing otherwise is just a data entry error on b-r.com's part.

It seems pretty clear that Baylor was considered to be a junior in 1957-58. He had only played three years of college basketball. I'm not sure if the current five-year limit was in place then -- based on Henry Finkel's chronology, it may not have been -- but even if it was, he still had a year to go before he hit it. The NBA Register also identifies Baylor as having been a junior when he was drafted.

Registers from the '80s and early '90s actually indicate that Baylor was drafted as a junior eligible, which I believe is true (somewhere along the line, when the Register was re-formatted, they seem to have banished the phrase "junior eligible"; newer editions just say "Selected after junior season"). Unlike the other players that we've discussed in this thread, however, I'm guessing that it was pretty clear Baylor was going to turn pro that year. I can't imagine the Lakers would have used the #1 overall pick in the open phase of the draft on a player who was entertaining the possibility of going back to school for his senior year. From that point of view, he was really no different than a player who was a true senior.
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Postby Bruce Kitts » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:20 pm

I believe Baylor's decision to turn pro after his junior year at Seattle U was enhanced by the fact that Seattle U was going to placed on probation and would not be eligible for post season play.

Thanks, Robert, for apparently clearing up why Baylor had to sit out a year. Not a lot of information about Baylor's arrival in Seattle was written in those days.

Academic progress during his transfer year was cited as why Baylor did not play for the Buchan Bakers that year. Seattle U maintained that the Bakers travel schedule, which included a month in the Philippines, would interfere with his studies. So, a rival AAU team was created, featuring Baylor and several Seattle U grads.

It was also believed locally, that Seattle U didn't want to allow Baylor to play for the Bakers, which scheduled several NIBL teams, because they didn't want basketball people outside of Seattle to see him play. The fear was that a larger basketball program might try to steal him away.
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