1980-81 New York Knicks Games Played/Started & Transactions

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1980-81 New York Knicks Games Played/Started & Transactions

Postby MCT » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:43 pm

This is the fourth of a planned series of threads analyzing games played, games started and transactions for the 1980-81 season. Before reading any further, see the introductory thread below:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4961

NEW YORK KNICKS – PART I

SEASON OVERVIEW

The Knicks had a 50-32 record. They finished third in the Atlantic Division, and were the #4 seed in the Eastern Conference playoffs. In the First Round, the Knicks lost to the Bulls 2-0 in a best-of-three “miniseries”. They therefore played a total of 2 playoff games.

The Knicks used 11 different players for the season. This was the minimum, but there were three additional players who were on the team’s roster during the regular season but did not appear in any games. One of these players was on their active roster briefly. The other two were only on the injured list, not the active roster. The Knicks were one of three NBA teams to use the minimum 11 players this year, but all three teams had at least one additional player on their roster at some point during the regular season.

ROSTER AND TRANSACTIONS

OPENING NIGHT ROSTER

Reggie Carter
Bill Cartwright
*Hollis Copeland
Larry Demic
Mike Glenn
*Toby Knight
Micheal Ray Richardson
Campy Russell
DeWayne Scales
Marvin Webster
Ray Williams
Sly Williams
Mike Woodson

*placed on injured list 10/9/80

IN-SEASON TRANSACTIONS

10/31/80 – Waived Hollis Copeland.

1/15/81 – Placed Sly Williams on the injured list; signed Kurt Rambis to a 10-day contract.

1/26/81 – Activated Sly Williams from the injured list.

Note: the Knicks finished the season with 12 players on their roster, including one on the injured list (Toby Knight). During their brief playoff run, the team used only 10 players. The two remaining players, who did not appear in the playoffs, were Toby Knight and DeWayne Scales. One of them was presumably on the playoff roster but was not used in any games, while the other was inactive. I don’t have any documentation of which is which. Given that Knight had missed the entire season due to injury, however, I think it is very likely that Scales was the player who filled the 11th slot on the playoff roster, but wasn't used in any games, while Knight was inactive.

NOTES/DISCREPANCIES

Hollis Copeland started the season on the Knicks’ injured list, then was waived – without having been activated from the IL or appearing in any games – on 10/31/80. pst.com has a transaction showing Copeland signing with the Knicks again on 1/11/81. This appears to be a typo of a transaction in the 1981-82 and 1982-83 NBA Registers that shows Copeland signing with the Knicks again after the season on 6/11/81.

My sources for Rambis being signed on 1/15/81, and for Williams being on the injured list from 1/15/81 to 1/26/81, are the Globe (i.e., this was reported in the transaction columns in the 1/16/81 and 1/27/81 papers) and pst.com (Frank likely sourced this from another newspaper). For much of his NBA career, Rambis’ entry in NBA Registers stated that he signed a 10-day contract that expired on 1/30/81, which suggests that he signed on or about 1/20/81. I believe the 1/20 and 1/30 dates are incorrect, however. The 1/15 and 1/26 dates are from contemporary media reports, which I regard as generally more reliable on dates than anything that was written after the fact, and line up well with the timeframe when Williams was out of the lineup. By contrast, the 1/20 and 1/30 dates don’t really make sense. The first game Williams missed was on 1/13, and he returned on 1/26; Rambis has to have been off the Knicks’ active roster by the time of the 1/26 game, because they used their full 11-man roster in that game, including Williams but not Rambis. Later in Rambis’ career, the Register changed to simply show him signing in “January 1981”, with no exact date; perhaps the Register’s editors determined that the date shown in earlier editions was wrong, but didn’t know the correct one? b-r.com, meanwhile, shows Rambis signing on 1/30/81. This is likely based on a misreading of the information in earlier NBA Registers. There was no reason for the Knicks to sign Rambis on 1/30, and no room for him on their roster on that date or during the 10-day period that followed.

GAMES STARTED INFO

MEDIA GUIDE

The 2013-14 Knicks Media Guide has regular season games started stats going back to the 1964-65 season. These appear in the player register section of the Guide (there is no year-by-year listing; you have to look up each player individually). For 1980-81, it shows the following:

Cartwright 81
Richardson 79
R. Williams 79
Russell 79
S. Williams 57
Demic 17
Scales 7
Glenn 6
Webster 3
Woodson 2

TSN BOX SCORES

All but one of the TSN box scores for the 1980-81 Knicks appear to list the players in “starters first” F-F-C-G-G order. The one exception was the game on 3/21/81. A complicating factor is that two of the Knicks’ regular starters (Campy Russell and Ray Williams) did not play in this game.

The first five players listed in the box score are Demic, Sly Williams, Glenn, Cartwright and Richardson. I believe that these players are in fact the starters, but with a couple (Glenn and Cartwright) out of order. Glenn would have been a logical fill-in for Ray Williams at G (but is shown in the C slot), while Cartwright was the regular starting C (but is shown in a G slot). Excluding this game, these five players’ games started totals from the TSN box scores are all one game short of the games started totals shown in the Knicks Media Guide. If we assume that the first five players listed were the starters, with Glenn and Cartwright out of order, the games started totals for all players are in agreement with those in the Knicks Media Guide, except for the discrepancy noted below.

NOTES/DISCREPANCIES

After making the above assumptions, there is one discrepancy between the Knicks Media Guide and the TSN boxes, involving one game and two players. The Media Guide indicates that Ray Williams started 79 games, and Mike Woodson 2. The TSN boxes suggest that Williams started 78 games, and Woodson 3. The source of the discrepancy is a game on 12/20/80. One would have expected Williams to start this game, but the TSN box score shows Woodson in a starter’s slot, with Williams coming off the bench.

In this series of articles, I am assuming that the games started numbers in team media guides are correct, and I have used the numbers from the Knicks Media Guide in Part II below. In this case, the Media Guide numbers intuitively make more sense to me anyway; there’s no obvious reason why Woodson would have started that game in place of Williams.

PLAYOFFS

The 2013-14 Knicks Media Guide has playoff games started stats going back to the 1953-54 season. These appear in the player register section of the Guide (there is no year-by-year listing; you have to look up each player individually). For 1980-81, the Media Guide shows that the same five players who were the usual starters for most of the regular season started both of the Knicks’ playoff games. The TSN box scores show the same.
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Re: 1980-81 New York Knicks Games Played/Started & Transacti

Postby MCT » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:47 pm

NEW YORK KNICKS – PART II

PLAYER INFORMATION

Players are listed based on a snapshot as of late February, although the Knicks’ roster and starting lineup were more-or-less the same all season, aside from some time Sly Williams apparently missed due to injury in December and January.

MICHEAL RAY RICHARDSON

History: 1st round pick of Knicks in 1978.

Games Played (Regular Season 79 G, 40.2 MPG; Playoffs 2 G, 43.0 MPG): The three games in which Richardson did not appear were three consecutive games from 11/12/80 through 11/15/80.

Games Started (Regular Season: 79; Playoffs: 2): Richardson started every game he played in.

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Guard-Forward. Primary position is shown as PG for most seasons of career, but SG for two seasons, including 1980-81 (the other is 1979-80). It appears to me that each of of the Knicks’ starting guards were combo guard types who were both more PGs than SGs; in labeling one the PG and one the SG, I’d do the opposite of b-r.com and call Richardson the PG and Ray Williams the SG.

BILL CARTWRIGHT

History: 1st round pick of Knicks in 1979.

Games Played (Regular Season 82 G, 35.7 MPG; Playoffs 2 G, 24.5 MPG): Cartwright appeared in every game the Knicks played.

Games Started (Regular Season: 81; Playoffs: 2): Of the 82 regular season games Cartwright played in, he started 79 at center, started two at forward, and came off the bench in one. The three games Cartwright did not start at center were 10/11/80 (opening night; Webster started at center, Cartwright came off the bench), 10/14/80 (second game of the season; Webster started at center, Cartwright started at power forward, and Sly Williams came off the bench), and 11/15/80 (regular starting forward Campy Russell did not play; Cartwright moved to forward, and Webster started at center).

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Center. Primary position is shown as C for all seasons of career. Cartwright and Webster are both listed as Cs exclusively, but it appears to me that at least one of them must have played some minutes at PF; there weren’t enough minutes at C for both of them.

RAY WILLIAMS

History: 1st round pick of Knicks in 1977.

Games Played (Regular Season 79 G, 34.7 MPG; Playoffs 2 G, 42.0 MPG): The three games in which Williams did not appear were two consecutive games on 12/27/80 & 12/30/80, and one additional game on 3/21/81.

Games Started (Regular Season: 79; Playoffs: 2): As discussed earlier, there is a one-game discrepancy in Williams’ regular season games started. The Knicks Media Guide indicates that he started all 79 games he appeared in, but the TSN box scores suggest that he started only 78 games. The discrepancy involves a game on 12/20/80. It seems pretty clear that Williams started every other game he played in.

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Guard. Primary position is shown as PG for most seasons of career, including 1980-81, but is SG for two seasons (1981-82 and 1983-84). As noted above, of the Knicks’ two starting guards, I’d call Richardson the PG and Williams the SG.

CAMPY RUSSELL

History: 1st round pick of Cavaliers in 1974. Acquired in trade with Cavaliers, September 1980.

Games Played (Regular Season 79 G, 36.3 MPG; Playoffs 2 G, 44.5 MPG): The three games in which Russell did not appear were two consecutive games on 11/14/80 & 11/15/80, and one additional game on 3/21/81.

Games Started (Regular Season: 79; Playoffs: 2): Russell started every game he played in.

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Forward. Primary position is shown as SF for all seasons of career.

SLY WILLIAMS

History: 1st round pick of Knicks in 1979.

Games Played (Regular Season 67 G, 29.5 MPG; Playoffs 2 G, 28.0 MPG): The fifteen games in which Williams did not appear were all during a 25-game stretch from 12/9/80 to 1/24/80 in which he was constantly in and out of the lineup, presumably due to an injury. The specific games he did not play in were three consecutive games from 12/9/80 through 12/11/80; following three games in which Williams played, two consecutive games on 12/19/80 & 12/20/80; following four games in which Williams played, two consecutive games on 1/2/81 & 1/3/81; and following three games in which Williams played, eight consecutive games from 1/13/81 to 1/24/81. From 1/15/81 to 1/26/81, Williams was on the injured list, and the Knicks signed another player to a 10-day contract to fill his roster spot (Kurt Rambis). Williams returned to the lineup on 1/26/81 and appeared in every game the Knicks played from that point on.

Games Started (Regular Season: 57; Playoffs: 2): The ten games Williams played in but did not start were on 10/14/80 (second game of the season), seven of the ten games he appeared in during the 25-game stretch discussed above (the only games he started during this period were two consecutive games on 12/27/80 & 12/30/80, and 1/10/81), and two consecutive games on 1/26/81 & 1/29/81 (the two games immediately following the 25-game stretch; the game on 1/29/81 was the last game before the All-Star break).

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Forward-Guard. Primary position is shown as SF for most seasons of career, but is PF for two seasons, including 1980-81 (the other is 1982-83).

MIKE GLENN

History: 2nd round pick of Bulls in 1977. Signed as Veteran Free Agent, June 1978.

Games Played (Regular Season 82 G, 18.4 MPG; Playoffs 2 G, 13.0 MPG): Glenn appeared in every game the Knicks played.

Games Started (Regular Season: 6; Playoffs: 0): The six games Glenn started were three consecutive games from 11/12/80 through 11/15/80, two consecutive games on 12/27/80 & 12/30/80, and one additional game on 3/21/81. These were all games in which either Richardson or Ray Williams did not play.

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Guard. Primary position is shown as SG for all seasons of career except 1980-81, which is shown as PG.

MARVIN WEBSTER

History: Began pro career in ABA, 1975. Signed as Veteran Free Agent, August 1978 (compensation owed to Sonics).

Games Played (Regular Season 82 G, 20.8 MPG; Playoffs 2 G, 31.5 MPG): Webster appeared in every game the Knicks played.

Games Started (Regular Season: 3; Playoffs: 0): The three games Webster started were 10/11/80 (opening night; Cartwright came off the bench), 10/14/80 (second game of the season; Cartwright started at power forward, and Sly Williams came off the bench), and 11/15/80 (regular starting forward Campy Russell did not play; Cartwright moved to forward, and Webster started at center).

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Center. Primary position is shown as C for all seasons of career. As noted above, it appears to me that, between Cartwright and Webster, at least one of them must have played some minutes at PF; there weren’t enough minutes at C for both of them.

LARRY DEMIC

History: 1st round pick of Knicks in 1979.

Games Played (Regular Season 76 G, 12.7 MPG; Playoffs 2 G, 18.5 MPG): The six games in which Demic did not appear were on 10/14/80, 10/23/80, three consecutive games from 11/21/80 through 11/24/80, and 1/20/81.

Games Started (Regular Season: 17; Playoffs: 0): 16 of the 17 games Demic started fell within the 25-game stretch in December and January when Sly Williams was in and out of the lineup. Of the 20 games from 12/9/80 (first game of the 25-game stretch) to 1/16/81, Demic started all but four, the exceptions being 12/11/80 (when Woodson started instead) and the three games during this period that Williams started (two consecutive games on 12/27/80 & 12/30/80, and 1/10/81). The remaining game that Demic started was on 3/21/81, a game in which Russell did not play.

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Forward-Center. Primary position is shown as PF for all seasons of career.

MIKE WOODSON

History: 1st round pick of Knicks in 1980.

Games Played (Regular Season 81 G, 11.7 MPG; Playoffs 2 G, 4.0 MPG): The only game in which Woodson did not appear was on 12/25/80.

Games Started (Regular Season: 2; Playoffs: 0): As discussed earlier, there is a one-game discrepancy in Woodson’s regular season games started. The Knicks Media Guide indicates that he started 2 games, but the TSN box scores suggest that he started 3 games. The discrepancy involves a game on 12/20/80. Aside from that game, the two games Woodson started were on 11/14/80 (Campy Russell did not play) and 12/11/80 (Sly Williams did not play). Both of these starts were at forward.

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Guard-Forward. Primary position is shown as SG for all seasons of career. Despite what b-r.com shows, I believe that Woodson played much more heavily this year at small forward than at shooting guard.

REGGIE CARTER

History: 2nd round pick of Knicks in 1979, as a junior eligible; returned to college for 1979-80 season, but signed with Knicks in April 1980 rather than re-enter that year’s draft.

Games Played (Regular Season 60 G, 8.9 MPG; Playoffs 1 G, 7.0 MPG): I’m not going to list out exactly which games Carter appeared in and which he didn’t, but his appearances in the TSN box scores do add up to his official games played total. Carter appeared in 22 of the Knicks’ first 25 games. That was followed by a stretch in which he played just 10 times in the next 22 games. Carter then closed out the regular season with 28 appearances in the last 35 games. Carter’s one playoff appearance was in the Knicks’ second and final game.

Games Started (Regular Season: 0; Playoffs: 0): Carter did not start any games.

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Guard. Primary position is shown as SG for all seasons of career.

DEWAYNE SCALES

History: 2nd round pick of Knicks in 1980.

Games Played (Regular Season 44 G, 11.0 MPG; Playoffs 0 G): Scales is credited with appearing in 44 regular season games, but I only noted him in 43 TSN box scores. b-r.com’s game log feature also shows Scales in only 43 box scores. It is possible that Scales was omitted from one box score in which he did not compile any stats that would have been shown in the box score. Those box scores that Scales does appear in suggest that he played sparingly in the early part of the season (he appears in the TSN box scores for just 9 of the Knicks’ first 31 games) but somewhat more frequently as the season wore on (34 out of the final 51 box scores).

The Knicks only used 10 players in the playoffs. I assume that Scales was the 11th man on the roster, but was not used in any games. The only other player on the Knicks’ roster at the end of the regular season was Toby Knight, who had been on the injured list all season. I think it is unlikely that Knight was activated in favor of Scales.

Games Started (Regular Season: 7; Playoffs: 0): Scales started seven consecutive games from 1/17/81 to 1/29/81. These represent the last five games of the 25-game stretch when Sly Williams was in and out of the lineup (Williams was on the injured list for these five games), and well as the two games immediately after in which Williams played but came off the bench. The last of these seven games, on 1/29/81, was the last game before the All-Star break.

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Forward. Primary position is shown as PF for all seasons of career.

INJURED LIST:

TOBY KNIGHT

History: 2nd round pick of Knicks in 1977.

Knight suffered a severe knee injury during the preseason, and missed the entire year as a result. The injury occurred during an exhibition game against the Celtics in Portland, ME on 9/23/80. Knight was formally placed on the injured list on 10/9/80 (the day before the regular season started) and remained there all season. He appears to have remained inactive for the playoffs as well.

Games Played: Knight was on the injured list all season, and did not appear in any games.

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Forward. Primary position is shown as SF for all seasons of career.

NO LONGER WITH TEAM:

HOLLIS COPELAND

History: 3rd round pick of Nuggets in 1978. Signed as a free agent, August 1979.

Copeland was placed on the injured list on 10/9/80 (the day before the start of the regular season), as the Knicks cut their active roster down to the minimum 11 players in preparation for the start of the season. He was waived on 10/31/80 without having been activated from the IL or appearing in any games.

Games Played: Copeland was on the injured list for the entire portion of the season he was on the Knicks’ roster, and did not appear in any games.

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Forward. Primary position is shown as SF for all seasons of career.

KURT RAMBIS

History: 3rd round pick of Knicks in 1980 (waived in training camp and did not start 1980-81 season with team). Signed to a 10-day contract, January 1981.

After being cut in training camp, Rambis was briefly brought back on a 10-day contract during the season, but did not appear in any games. He was signed on 1/15/81, when Sly Williams went on the injured list. Rambis was not signed to a second 10-day contract, as Williams was activated on 1/26/81.

Games Played: Rambis was briefly on the active roster, but did not appear in any games.

b-r.com position info: Position in old b-r.com header is listed as Forward. Primary position is shown as PF for all seasons of career.
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Re: 1980-81 New York Knicks Games Played/Started & Transacti

Postby MCT » Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:53 pm

NEW YORK KNICKS – PART III

PLAYERS BY POSITION

STARTERS

The Knicks had a stable starting lineup throughout the season: Cartwright at center; Russell and Sly Williams at forward; and Richardson and Ray Williams at guard. Aside from a period in December and January when Sly Williams was apparently injured and constantly in and out of the lineup, the starting five were the same all year.

b-r.com lists Williams as the PF and Russell as the SF. I would agree with that assessment.

In the backcourt, b-r.com lists Williams as the PG, and Richardson as the SG. Each of these guys seems like a combo guard type who was more a PG than SG. In labeling one the PG and one the SG, I’d call Richardson the PG and Ray Williams the SG; Richardson had nearly 200 more assists than Williams did, although Williams was no slouch in this department either. Does anyone have any insight into how the offense flowed through these two?

The Knicks’ starters played fairly heavy minutes. Four of the five starters averaged at least 34 minutes per game during the regular season, with Sly Williams the only exception. Richardson actually averaged over 40 mpg.

RESERVES

The most heavily used reserves were Webster and Glenn, who averaged 20.8 and 18.4 mpg, respectively. Webster is listed as a center, but he and Cartwright collectively saw about 8 minutes too many per game to be playing exclusively at center. One or both of them must have played some power forward as well. Whatever position he was playing, Webster was certainly the main big man off the bench. The Knicks’ playoff stats are drawn from a small sample – only two games – but note the changes in Cartwright’s and Webster’s minutes from the regular season to the playoffs. Webster played more minutes in the playoffs than Cartwright did, even though Cartwright was still starting.

Glenn is listed as a PG this year, even though he is shown as an SG every other season of his career. He looks like an SG to me this year as well; perhaps b-r.com labeled him at PG simply because there were no other PGs on the bench, and in their methodology someone has to be the backup PG. Either way, Glenn was the main reserve at guard. The starting guards played heavy minutes, and Glenn far more minutes than any other reserve guard, with the three of them collectively covering the vast majority of the available minutes. I would guess that Glenn spent a lot of time playing alongside both Richardson and Williams, with Glenn taking on an SG role and whichever of the other two was in the game serving as the PG. Under that arrangement, you didn’t really need a backup PG.

The next group of reserves includes Larry Demic and Mike Woodson, at 12.7 and 11.7 mpg, respectively. Demic was a power forward. That position was pretty crowded in terms of personnel, but Sly Williams played lighter minutes than any other starter. Woodson’s primary position is listed by b-r.com as SG, although his position in the header is Guard-Forward. Looking at the available minutes, it appears to me that Woodson must have mainly played small forward this year. No backup is listed by b-r.com as a small forward, and there weren’t enough minutes available at guard for Woodson to have played it as any more than a secondary position, if even that. Again with the caveat that we’re dealing with a small sample, note that in the playoffs Demic’s minutes went up, while Woodson’s dropped significantly.

The last two players on the bench were Reggie Carter and DeWayne Scales. Scales averaged more minutes than Carter (11.0 – not much less than Demic and Woodson, actually – versus 8.9) but played much less frequently (44 games versus 60). Carter, listed by b-r.com as an SG, was the fourth guard behind the two starters and Glenn. Scales picked up whatever minutes were left over at PF. In the playoffs, Carter played little, Scales not at all.

POSITION NOTES

Center, Power Forward and Small Forward

b-r.com lists Cartwright and Webster exclusively as centers. But there weren’t enough minutes at center for the two of them. The two played 667 minutes, or 8.1 mpg, too many. One or both of them must have been playing those minutes at power forward. This was true in the playoffs as well, where the pair played 11 minutes too many to fit at center, or 5.5 mpg.

That makes sense, as Sly Williams played the lightest minutes of any starter. In addition to Williams and Cartwright/Webster, Demic and Scales were also power forwards, although Scales obviously wasn’t an everyday player. Add up all of their minutes, and you get a figure that’s a little bit higher than the available minutes at PF, but not by that much – just 125 minutes, maybe a couple of minutes per game. Williams is shown as playing SF in other seasons, and was a bit on the small side for a PF, so he may have played a few minutes alongside one of the other PFs, in more of an SF role.

At small forward, b-r.com lists no one as a backup behind Russell. Even with Williams playing a few minutes a game in an SF role, there are still about 976 minutes (11.9 mpg) missing. Who played those minutes? My guess is that Woodson did. Even though b-r.com shows his primary position as SG, I strongly suspect that this year he was used mainly, maybe even more-or-less exclusively, at small forward. Woodson played 949 minutes for the year, which fits pretty neatly into the hole at small forward. Meanwhile, the other guards on the roster collectively played 27 more minutes than were available at guard, so there was no room for Woodson there. The situation in the playoffs was similar, although Woodson saw little playing time then (just eight minutes over the two games that were played).

The only way Woodson could have any amount of minutes at guard at all is if one of the other guards sometimes played SF. Richardson’s position in his b-r.com header is shown as “Guard-Forward”; does anyone have any insight into Richardson possibly playing some SF? I’d be surprised if the Knicks used Richardson heavily there, but could he have filled in for a few minutes a game? Note that Richardson ranked second on the team with a very forward-like 545 rebounds, one of three seasons he had with 500+ rebounds. And Richardson had the floor time to make it feasible to cover a few minutes at SF; he was off the floor for fewer than eight minutes a game.

Demic at C, Sly Williams at G?

b-r.com shows Demic’s primary position as PF for every season of his NBA career, but the header lists his position as “Forward-Center.” Similarly, b-r.com shows Williams’ primary position as either PF or SF for every season of his NBA career, but the header lists his position as “Forward-Guard”. I don’t see why the Knicks would have had any pressing need to use Demic at C or Williams at G, but who knows. Does anyone have any insight into either of those guys being used at those positions?

TRIVIA

Oldest Player: Campy Russell, born 1/12/52 (age 28 at start of season, turned 29 in January).

Played in ABA: Marvin Webster.

Longest continuous service with team: Ray Williams and the injured Toby Knight were both acquired in the 1977 draft, and had been with the team since the 1977-78 season.

Highest original draft position*: #3 overall – Marvin Webster and Bill Cartwright.

Lowest original draft position*: No player who appeared in a game for the Knicks in 1980-81 was taken below the second round. The player with the lowest overall pick position was DeWayne Scales (#36). If we include players who were on the roster but did not appear in any games, Hollis Copeland and Kurt Rambis were both 3rd round picks, and Rambis had the lowest overall pick position (#58).

Youngest Player: DeWayne Scales, born 12/28/58 (age 21 at start of season, turned 22 in December). Scales was a first-year professional who had left college to turn pro after his junior year.

*Which player was chosen with the highest/lowest selection, by round and/or overall pick, with no regard to whether any players may have been drafted under circumstances not reflecting their “true” value (e.g., player was a junior eligible who had not committed to turn pro right away; player was already under contract to ABA, or thought to be likely to sign with ABA).
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Re: 1980-81 New York Knicks Games Played/Started & Transacti

Postby meej » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:33 pm

Hollis Copeland finished that season for Helios in Spain, he left quite an impression due to his athlecism and scoring ability.

He played his first game for Helios on 29 November 1980.
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Re: 1980-81 New York Knicks Games Played/Started & Transacti

Postby MCT » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:40 pm

A while back, Mike G. posted some material in the Spurs thread, with position information for 1980-81 sourced from Neft & Cohen’s NBA Encyclopedia. I recently posted about this in the introductory thread to this series, noting that I planned to post and comment on this data on a team-by-team basis. See the eighth post in the introductory thread for more information.

Here’s what Neft & Cohen have for the Knicks:

Mike Goodman wrote:
Code: Select all
tm    player          pos   Min     PO   Min
NY MichaelR Richardson G   3175      G   86
NY   Bill Cartwright  Cf   2925     cf   49
NY   Campy Russell     F   2865      F   89
NY   Ray Williams      G   2742      G   84
NY   Sly Williams      F   1976      F   56
NY   Marvin Webster    c   1708      C   63
NY   Mike Glenn        g   1506      g   26
NY   Larry Demic       f    964      f   37
NY   Mike Woodson      f    949         
NY   Reggie Carter     g    536         
NY   DeWayne Scales    f    484         


MCT wrote:b-r.com lists Cartwright and Webster exclusively as centers. But there weren’t enough minutes at center for the two of them. The two played 667 minutes, or 8.1 mpg, too many. One or both of them must have been playing those minutes at power forward. This was true in the playoffs as well, where the pair played 11 minutes too many to fit at center, or 5.5 mpg.

Neft & Cohen think the center who swung to power forward was Cartwright, who they have as “Cf”. They don’t think Webster factored into the equation at forward, as they have him as exclusively a center.

MCT wrote:At small forward, b-r.com lists no one as a backup behind Russell. Even [taking into account minutes Sly Williams may have played] in an SF role, there are still about 976 minutes (11.9 mpg) missing. Who played those minutes? My guess is that Woodson did. Even though b-r.com shows his primary position as SG, I strongly suspect that this year he was used mainly, maybe even more-or-less exclusively, at small forward. Woodson played 949 minutes for the year, which fits pretty neatly into the hole at small forward. Meanwhile, the other guards on the roster collectively played 27 more minutes than were available at guard, so there was no room for Woodson there. The situation in the playoffs was similar, although Woodson saw little playing time then (just eight minutes over the two games that were played).

Neft & Cohen seem to agree with my take on Woodson. They have him as “f”. Note that this contradicts b-r.com’s identification of Woodson’s primary position as SG (which I had disputed in my previous analysis).

MCT wrote:The only way Woodson could have any amount of minutes at guard at all is if one of the other guards sometimes played SF. Richardson’s position in his b-r.com header is shown as “Guard-Forward”; does anyone have any insight into Richardson possibly playing some SF? I’d be surprised if the Knicks used Richardson heavily there, but could he have filled in for a few minutes a game? Note that Richardson ranked second on the team with a very forward-like 545 rebounds, one of three seasons he had with 500+ rebounds. And Richardson had the floor time to make it feasible to cover a few minutes at SF; he was off the floor for fewer than eight minutes a game.

Neft & Cohen have Richardson as exclusively a guard.

MCT wrote: b-r.com shows Demic’s primary position as PF for every season of his NBA career, but the header lists his position as “Forward-Center.” Similarly, b-r.com shows [Sly] Williams’ primary position as either PF or SF for every season of his NBA career, but the header lists his position as “Forward-Guard”. I don’t see why the Knicks would have had any pressing need to use Demic at C or Williams at G, but who knows. Does anyone have any insight into either of those guys being used at those positions?

Neft & Cohen have both Demic and Williams as exclusively forwards.
MCT
 
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