potential trade

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potential trade

Postby John Grasso » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:15 pm

The potential trade involving the Nets, Pistons and Nuggets will leave the
Nets with only six players until they receive their newly acquired ones.

If the trade takes place before the Nets next scheduled game on Wednesday,
they will have to acquire one or more players on 10 day contracts
in order to have the minimum roster for their game with Phoenix on Wednesday.

I don't recall any NBA team ever getting rid of more than half their team mid-season.

One thing that makes this move even more interesting is that the Nets opening day roster this season included only 4 players from the 18 that they had used last season.
Last edited by John Grasso on Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby tpakrac » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:01 am

This is unheard of. One team trading a total of 8 players.

Interesting article published here:

http://www.nba.com/history/largest_trades_030819.html

All-Time Largest Trades in NBA History

Aug. 2, 2005 -- The largest trade ever in NBA history was completed today, the first day contracts could be signed under the new Collective Bargaining Agreement. Five teams combined to swap 13 players, surpassing a 12-player deal completed in 2000. Take a look at the all-time biggest trades in NBA history.

THIRTEEN PLAYERS:
August 2, 2005: MIAMI HEAT acquires F Antoine Walker from the BOSTON CELTICS and G Jason Williams, F James Posey and G Andre Emmett from the MEMPHIS GRIZZLIES and the draft rights to C Roberto Duenas from the NEW ORLEANS HORNETS in a five-team trade that sent G-F Eddie Jones to Memphis, F Rasual Butler to New Orleans, a 2006 second-round draft pick, a conditional second-round draft pick, F Qyntel Woods and the draft rights to Albert Miralles to Boston; The UTAH JAZZ acquired C Greg Ostertag from Memphis; Boston acquired C Curtis Borchardt from Utah and G Raul Lopez from Memphis; New Orleans acquired G Kirk Snyder from Utah.

TWELVE PLAYERS:
September 20, 2000: NEW YORK acquires F Glen Rice, C Travis Knight and a first-round pick from the LOS ANGELES LAKERS and C Vladimir Stepania, F Lazaro Borrell, G Vernon Maxwell, a first-round pick and two second round picks from SEATTLE in a four-team trade that sent C Patrick Ewing to Seattle; Los Angeles Lakers acquired F Horace Grant and F Chuck Person, C Greg Foster and G Emanual Davis from Seattle; PHOENIX acquired C Chris Dudley and a first-round pick from New York for C Luc Longley.

ELEVEN PLAYERS:
August 27, 1999: HOUSTON traded G Michael Dickerson, F/C Othella Harrington, G Brent Price, F/C Antoine Carr and a future first round draft pick to VANCOUVER as part of a three-way deal in which the Rockets received draft rights to G Steve Francis and F Tony Massenburg from Grizzlies and F Don MacLean and future first round draft choice from ORLANDO, and the Magic received F Michael Smith, G/F Rodrick Rhodes, G Lee Mayberry and F Makhtar Ndiaya from Grizzlies.

NINE PLAYERS:
February 17, 1997: DALLAS traded G Sam Cassell, G Jim Jackson, G George McCloud, F Chris Gatling and C Eric Montross to NEW JERSEY for C Shawn Bradley, G Robert Pack, G Khalid Reeves and F Ed O’Bannon.

March 11, 1999: MILWAUKEE traded G Terrell Brandon to MINNESOTA and G Elliot Perry to NEW JERSEY in exchange for New Jersey trading G Sam Cassell and F Chris Gatling to Milwaukee and F Brian Evans and future draft considerations to Minnesota in exchange for Minnesota trading G Chris Carr, F Bill Curley and G Stephon Marbury to New Jersey and C Paul Grant to Milwaukee.

August 17, 2000: BOSTON traded F Danny Fortson to GOLDEN STATE as part of four-team deal in which Celtics received G Robert Pack, F/C John "Hot Rod" Williams and cash considerations from DALLAS and a conditional first-round draft choice from UTAH, Mavericks received G Dana Barros from Celtics, F Bill Curley from Warriors and G Howard Eisley from Utah Jazz, Jazz received F Donyell Marshall from Warriors and C Bruno Sundov from Mavericks and Warriors received F Adam Keefe from Jazz.

August 18, 2003: GOLDEN STATE traded F Antawn Jamison, F Danny Fortson, F Chris Mills and G Jiri Welsch to DALLAS for G Nick Van Exel, G Avery Johnson, G Antoine Rigaudeau, F Popeye Jones, and C Evan Eschmeyer.

EIGHT PLAYERS:
June 9, 1964: DETROIT traded Bailey Howell, Don Ohl, Bob Ferry, and the rights to rookies Wally Jones and Les Hunter to BALTIMORE for Terry Dischinger, Rod Thorn and Don Kojis.

February 22, 2001: WASHINGTON traded F Juwan Howard, C Obinna Ekezie and F Calvin Booth to DALLAS for F Christian Laettner, F Loy Vaught, F Etan Thomas, G Hubert Davis and G Courtney Alexander.

January 5, 2003: NEW YORK traded F Antonio McDyess, G, Howard Eisley, G Charlie Ward, F/C Maciej Lampe and the draft rights to G Milos Vujanic to PHOENIX for G Stephon Marbury, G Anfernee Hardaway and C Cezary Trybanski.

August 26, 2004: DALLAS traded F Eduardo Najera, F Christian Laettner and the draft rights to G Luis Flores and G Mladen Sekularac, two future first round draft picks and cash considerations to GOLDEN STATE for C Erick Dampier, C Evan Eschmeyer, G Dan Dickau, the draft rights to Steve Logan.
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Postby Robert Bradley » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:10 am

A little more complete list from THE COMPENDIUM OF PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL (with additions for trades since the last edition) -

THE BIGGEST TRADES IN BAA/NBA HISTORY

13 PLAYERS

2Aug05 - Boston, Memphis, Miami & Utah
11 players, 2 draft choices - Miami acquires Antoine Walker from Boston, Jason Williams, James Posey and Andre Emmett from Memphis and the draft rights to Roberto Duenas from New Orleans in a five-team trade that sends Eddie Jones to Memphis, Rasual Butler to New Orleans, a 2006 second-round draft pick [56-Edin Bavcic], a conditional second-round draft pick [2008, 31-Nikola Pekovic], Qyntel Woods and the draft rights to Albert Miralles to Boston; Utah acquires Greg Ostertag from Memphis; Boston acquired Curtis Borchardt from Utah and Raul Lopez from Memphis; New Orleans acquires Kirk Snyder from Utah

12 PLAYERS

20Sep00 - L.A. Lakers, New York, Phoenix & Seattle
8 players, 4 draft choices - New York acquires Glen Rice, Travis Knight and a first-round pick [2002, 20 Kareem Rush] from the Los Angeles Lakers and Vladimir Stepania, Lazaro Borrell, Vernon Maxwell, a first-round pick [2001, 27-Jamaal Tinsley] and two second-round picks [2001, 38-Michael Wright & 42-Eric Chenowith] from Seattle in a four-team trade that sends Patrick Ewing to Seattle; Los Angeles Lakers acquires Horace Grant and Chuck Person, Greg Foster and Emanual Davis from Seattle; Phoenix acquires Chris Dudley and a first-round pick [2001, 18-Jason Collins] from New York for Luc Longley

11 PLAYERS

27Aug99 - Houston, Orlando & Vancouver
9 players, 2 draft choices - Houston trades Michael Dickerson, Othella Harrington, Brent Price, Antoine Carr and a future first-round draft [2003, 13-Marcus Banks] pick to Vancouver as part of a three-way deal in which Houston receives Tony Massenberg and the draft rights to Steve Francis from Vancouver and Don MacLean and future first-round draft choice [2001, 18-Jason Collins] from Orlando, and Orlando receives Michael Smith, Rodrick Rhodes, Lee Mayberry and Makhtar Ndiaye from Vancouver

10 PLAYERS

16Aug00 - Boston, Dallas, Golden State & Utah
9 players, 1 draft choice - Boston trades Danny Fortson to Golden State as part of four-team deal in which Boston receives Robert Pack, John Williams and cash considerations from Dallas and a conditional first-round draft choice [2001, 21-Joseph Forte] from Utah, Dallas receives Dana Barros from Boston, Bill Curley from Golden State and Howard Eisley from Utah, Utah receives Donyell Marshall from Golden State and Bruno Sundov from Dallas and Golden State receives Adam Keefe from Utah

26Aug04 - Dallas & Golden State
8 players, 2 draft choices - Dallas trades Eduardo Najera, Christian Laettner and the draft rights to Luis Flores and Mladen Sekularac, two future first-round [2007, 30-Petteri Koponen & undetermined] draft picks and cash considerations to Golden State for Erick Dampier, Evan Eschmeyer, Dan Dickau, and the draft rights to Steve Logan

18Feb10 - Houston, New York & Sacramento
9 players, 1 draft choice - New York trades Jordan Hill, Jared Jeffries and a 2012 first-round draft choice to Houston, Sacramento trades Hilton Armstrong and Kevin Martin to Houston, Houston trades Tracy McGrady to New York, Sacramento trades Sergio Rodriguez to New York, Houston trades Joey Dorsey and Carl Landry to Sacramento, New York trades Larry Hughes to Sacramento

NINE PLAYERS

3May78 - Boston & San Diego
7/2 draft choices - Boston trades Kevin Kunnert, Kermit Washington, Sidney Wicks, and the rights to Freeman Williams to San Diego for Nate Archibald, Marvin Barnes, Billy Knight and 1981 and 1983 second-round draft choices [31-Danny Ainge & 28-Rod Foster]

25Feb88 - Cleveland & Phoenix
5 players, 4 draft choices - Cleveland trades Tyrone Corbin, Kevin Johnson, Mark West, a 1988 first-round draft choice [14-Dan Majerle] and 2988 and 1989 second-round draft choices [38-Dean Garrett & 52-Greg Grant] to Phoenix for Larry Nance, Mike Sanders, and a 1988 first-round draft choice [22-Randolph Keys]

17Feb97 - Dallas & New Jersey
9 players, 0 draft choices - Dallas trades Sam Cassell, Chris Gatling, Jim Jackson, George McCloud, and Eric Montross to New Jersey for Shawn Bradley, Ed O’Bannon, Robert Pack and Khalid Reeves

11Mar99 - Milwaukee, Minnesota & New Jersey
9 players, 0 draft choices - Milwaukee trades Terrell Brandon to Minnesota and Elliot Perry to New Jersey in exchange for New Jersey trading Sam Cassell and Chris Gatling to Milwaukee and Brian Evans and future draft considerations [1999, 6-Wally Szczerbiak] to Minnesota in exchange for Minnesota trading Chris Carr, Bill Curley and Stephon Marbury to New Jersey and Paul Grant to Milwaukee

18Aug03 - Dallas & Golden State
9 players, 0 draft choices - Golden State trades Antawn Jamison, Danny Fortson, Chris Mills and Jiri Welsch to Dallas for Nick Van Exel, Avery Johnson, Antoine Rigaudeau, Popeye Jones, and Evan Eschmeyer

19Feb08 - Dallas & New Jersey
7 players, 2 draft choices - New Jersey trades Jason Kidd, Malik Allen and Antione Wright to Dallas for Devin Harris, Maurice Ager, Trenton Hassell, Keith Van Horn, two first-round draft choices [2008, 21-Ryan Anderson & undetermined] and cash considerations

9Jul09 - Dallas, Memphis & Toronto
8 players, 1 draft choice - Memphis trades Greg Buckner to Dallas, Toronto trades Kris Humpries, Nathan Jawai and Shawn Marion to Dallas and cash to Orlando, Dallas trades Jerry Stackhouse to Memphis, Toronto trades a 2016 second-round draft choice to Memphis, Memphis trades Devean George and Antione Wright to Toronto, Orlando trades Hedo Turkoglu to Toronto

EIGHT PLAYERS

18Jun64 - Baltimore & Detroit
8 players, 0 draft choices - Detroit trades Bob Ferry, Bailey Howell, Les Hunter, Wali Jones, and Don Ohl to Baltimore for Terry Dischinger, Don Kojis, and Rod Thorn

18Aug83 - San Diego & Seattle
5 players, 3 draft choices - San Diego trades Tom Chambers, Al Wood, a 1987 second-round draft choice [24-Freddie Banks], and a 1984 third-round draft choice [52-Terry Williams] to Seattle for James Donaldson, Greg Kelser, Mark Radford, and a 1985 first-round draft choice [14-Michael Cage]

27Jun97 - New Jersey & Philadelphia
8 players, 0 draft choices - New Jersey trades Jim Jackson, Eric Montross, and the draft rights to Anthony Parker and Tim Thomas to Philadelphia for Michael Cage, Lucious Harris, Don MacLean, and the draft rights to Keith Van Horn

22Feb01 - Dallas & Washington
8 players, 0 draft choices - Washington trades Juwan Howard, Obinna Ekezie and Calvin Booth to Dallas for Christian Laettner, Loy Vaught, Etan Thomas, Hubert Davis and Courtney Alexander

5Jan03 - New York & Phoenix
8 players, 0 draft choices - New York trades Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe and the draft rights to Milos Vujanic to Phoenix for Stephon Marbury, Penny Hardaway and Cezary Trybanski
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Available at https://Rowman.com

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http://apbrbasketball.blogspot.com/
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Postby Mike Goodman » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:08 pm

tpakrac wrote:Aug. 2, 2005 -- The largest trade ever in NBA history was completed today, ... Five teams combined to swap 13 players, surpassing a 12-player deal completed in 2000. ..

Antoine Walker ... Jason Williams, F James Posey and G Andre Emmett ...draft rights to C Roberto Duenas ...G-F Eddie Jones..., F Rasual Butler ... a conditional second-round draft pick, F Qyntel Woods and the draft rights to Albert Miralles ... C Greg Ostertag ...C Curtis Borchardt from Utah and G Raul Lopez ... G Kirk Snyder...

We see 13 players named, plus a 'conditional pick'. Maybe that pick never became a player?
Meanwhile, how many of these names actually played?
Emmett, Borchardt, and Lopez had played in '04-05, but not after this trade.
I don't find any Albert Miralles or Roberto Duenas in the NBA records.

It seems 5 of the 13 'players' were just 'filler' and never actually played (again) in the NBA.
Is he a player who never plays?
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Postby MCT » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:08 am

I don't think there's ever been a trade that has involved a team trading away as many players, or as large a percentage of its roster, as the Nets would under this proposal.

As Robert's list illustrates, most of the "mega-trades" in NBA history have been in fairly recent times. This is undoubtedly a by-product of the NBA's modern salary cap rules, which often require players to be included in a trade solely to balance the salaries (the team acquiring the players may have no particular want or need for them), and which often see teams seek to acquire players not because of anything they can do on the court but because they have expiring contracts. The 1964 Pistons-Bullets trade and the 1983 Sonics-Clippers trade really stand out as unusually large trades for the eras they ocurred in. The 1978 Celtics-Clippers trade was a little different; it wasn't so much a trade as a part of the "franchise swap" between the ownership of the Boston and Buffalo/San Diego franchises.

A notable in-season house cleaning from the pre-1990 era was the Suns' involvement in three separate trades over a two-day period in February 1988, one of which involved enough players and draft picks to make Robert's list. Overall, the Suns traded away four players and received five back.
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Postby MCT » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:02 am

tpakrac wrote:Aug. 2, 2005 -- The largest trade ever in NBA history was completed today, ... Five teams combined to swap 13 players, surpassing a 12-player deal completed in 2000. ..
Antoine Walker ... Jason Williams, F James Posey and G Andre Emmett ...draft rights to C Roberto Duenas ...G-F Eddie Jones..., F Rasual Butler ... a conditional second-round draft pick, F Qyntel Woods and the draft rights to Albert Miralles ... C Greg Ostertag ...C Curtis Borchardt from Utah and G Raul Lopez ... G Kirk Snyder...

Mike Goodman wrote:We see 13 players named, plus a 'conditional pick'. Maybe that pick never became a player?

According to prosportstransactions.com, that pick did end up ultimately passing to the Celtics. It's not clear what the conditions were on it, but it turned out to be the 31st overall pick in 2008. By then, the Celtics had traded the pick to the Timberwolves, who used it to take a player from Montenegro (part of the former Yugoslavia) named Nikola Pekovic, who came over and joined the T-Wolves this season.

Meanwhile, how many of these names actually played?

Emmett, Borchardt, and Lopez had played in '04-05, but not after this trade.

According to prosportstransactions.com, Borchardt was waived by the Celtics on 10/27/05, and Emmett was waived by the Heat on 10/31/05. From the dates, I would surmise that these players went to training camp with their new teams but were cut. Both appear to have had one year remaining on their contracts at the time they were traded. Borchardt was heading into the fourth and final year of a first-round pick rookie "scale" contract, so his contract was probably guaranteed, but at a moderate salary (b-r.com shows it as a little under $2 million). Emmett was playing under a contract he had signed as a rookie second-round pick; his '05-'06 salary may or may not have been guaranteed but probably wasn't for a whole lot of money either way (b-r.com shows it as about $641K).

Like Borchardt, Lopez was heading into the fourth and final season of a first-round scale contract at the time of the trade. The above site shows that Lopez was waived by Memphis on 8/17/05, shortly after the draft, with a note that reads "team and player agreed to terminate final year of contract". I don't know the circumstances, but Lopez appears to have had a lot of injury problems. He was also from Spain and may have simply wanted to go back and play in Europe. b-r.com lists his 2005-06 salary as about $1.7 million. Based on the above note, it's not clear if he actually collected any of it.

I don't find any Albert Miralles or Roberto Duenas in the NBA records.

Miralles, who is from Spain, was a second round pick in 2004. He was actually drafted by the Raptors but his rights were traded to the Heat on draft day. Since draft rights have no salary cap value, I don't see any cap-related reason why he would have needed to be included in this trade. Maybe the Celtics were legitimately interested in him, or felt his rights were more of a known quantity than what they could have gotten with a future second round pick. It looks like Miralles has never signed an NBA contract.

Duenas, who is yet another Spaniard, was originally drafted by the Bulls on the second round back in 1997, when he was the final pick of the entire draft. A few weeks before the 2001 draft, the Bulls traded his rights to the Hornets for a second round pick in that year's draft. His rights then passed to the Heat in the trade under discussion. As with Miralles, it looks like Duenas has never signed an NBA contract.

There is an apparent cap-related explanation for why Duenas was included in this trade. The Hornets acquired two players in the trade (Rasual Butler and Kirk Snyder), but the only thing they gave up was Duenas' rights. Since draft rights have no cap value, the Hornets took on salary but didn't give any up. In order to do so, they were presumably under the salary cap at the time of the trade, and were essentially given Butler and Snyder for free in exchange for being willing to take on a certain amount of salary (represented by Butler and Snyder's contracts) that the other teams involved in the trade could not or would not take on. NBA trade rules require a team that acquires assets to give up something in return, however, even if the other team(s) are effectively willing to give them the assets for free. Duenas' rights worked nicely in that they carried no cap value and were also likely of little or no actual value. At that point it was probably seen as unlikely that Duenas would ever play in the NBA; it had been eight years since he had originally been drafted. Other teams have made similar deals under these types of circumstances. The thread below mentions a few more instances:

viewtopic.php?t=2374
Last edited by MCT on Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:24 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Mike Goodman » Sat Jan 15, 2011 4:59 pm

These non-players are what I referred to as 'filler' in the deal. They don't really add anything to make the deal 'bigger'.

The size of a deal might be quantified by how many years, games, or minutes were subsequently played by those who were dealt. Names on a ledger sheet are just that -- names.
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Postby meej » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:28 pm

MCT wrote:At that point it was probably seen as unlikely that Duenas would ever play in the NBA; it had been eight years since he had originally been drafted.


Plus, he missed the second half of the 2004-05 season recovering from back surgery, and his career was fast approaching its end. Barcelona would not re-sign him in 2005, and he only played for one season after that (he was injured by most of his last season). I mean, it's not just that Dueñas was hardly a viable NBA prospect in 2005, he was on the verge of retirement.
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Postby tpakrac » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:24 pm

Mike Goodman wrote:We see 13 players named, plus a 'conditional pick'. Maybe that pick never became a player?
Meanwhile, how many of these names actually played?
Emmett, Borchardt, and Lopez had played in '04-05, but not after this trade.
I don't find any Albert Miralles or Roberto Duenas in the NBA records.

It seems 5 of the 13 'players' were just 'filler' and never actually played (again) in the NBA.
Is he a player who never plays?


You just can't take them away. Albert Miralles and Roberto Duenas were drafted by NBA clubs and that's enough for me.
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Postby Gabe Farkas » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:47 pm

Mike Goodman wrote:We see 13 players named, plus a 'conditional pick'. Maybe that pick never became a player?
A conditional pick, as I understand it, means that the team has the right to swap picks, or that the pick is conferred only if certain conditions are met.

For instance, Team A trades a conditional 2001 second round pick to Team B. When the draft order is determined, Team A's second round pick is #35, while Team B's is #50. In that case, Team B would probably choose to exercise the swap, allowing them to jump 15 spots.

The other possibility, which is when certain conditions need to be met, usually involves things like lottery protection, meaning that the pick is only swapped if it's not in the Top 13, or something along those lines.

Either way, the pick will eventually become a player, but it's not immediately clear at the time of the trade which team will own that player's rights.
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Postby tpakrac » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:55 pm

Trade talks have resurfaced:

"The Denver Nuggets and the New York Knicks are discussing a three-team trade that would make forward Carmelo Anthony a Knick before the Feb. 24 trade deadline, according to league sources.

In the proposed trade, New York would send Anthony Randolph and Eddy Curry to Minnesota and the Timberwolves would send Corey Brewer and a first-round pick to Denver. Denver would also receive Wilson Chandler from New York."

In my opinion, this is the worst trade in the NBA history. Knicks would get Carmelo basically for nothing, they would retain all draft picks plus Minnesota would lose first-round pick.
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Postby meej » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:45 pm

That would mean that the Nuggets are out of options: Carmelo Anthony won't sign an extension elsewhere, so Denver can either take the draft pick or lose him for nothing. It's the only reason I can think of for them to make such a trade.
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Postby Robert Bradley » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:00 am

12-Player trade -

22Feb11 - New York & Denver
9 players, 3 draft choices - Denver trades Carmelo Anthony, Chauncey Billups, Anthony Carter, Rolando Balkman and Sheldon Williams to New York Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinari, Raymond Felton, Timofey Mozgov, a 2014 first-round draft choice and 2012 and 2013 second-round draft choices.

this is the largest two-team trade in NBA history. the previous was the 10-player trade between dallas and golden state on 26Aug04
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Re: potential trade

Postby MCT » Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:09 pm

Mike Goodman wrote:I don't find any Albert Miralles...in the NBA records.

MCT wrote:Miralles, who is from Spain, was a second round pick in 2004. He was actually drafted by the Raptors but his rights were traded to the Heat on draft day. Since draft rights have no salary cap value, I don't see any cap-related reason why he would have needed to be included in this trade. Maybe the Celtics were legitimately interested in him, or felt his rights were more of a known quantity than what they could have gotten with a future second round pick. It looks like Miralles has never signed an NBA contract.

Since this thread was last active, Albert Miralles has moved on again, or at least his rights have. Last December, before the start of the lockout-abbreviated 2011-12 season, the Celtics sent his rights to the Bucks for Keyon Dooling and a conditional 2nd round pick. I don't know the circumstances of the trade. But I'm guessing that the Bucks wanted to get rid of Dooling, the Celtics were interested in taking him, and from the Bucks' point of view getting his salary off their books was all they really wanted; they weren't expecting any assets in return. Since something had to go on the other side of the ledger, though, the Celtics sent them Miralles' rights. According to prosportstransactions.com, Dooling was heading into the second year of a 2-year contract; b-r.com shows that he made about $2.25M in 2011-12. So it doesn't look like he had an especially big contract by NBA standards.

I don't know what the deal was with the 2nd round pick that went from Milwaukee to Boston. According to prosportstransactions.com, it was a pick in the 2012 draft that was protected if it was among the top 44 picks; the Celtics would only get it if it was in the 45-60 range. The Bucks' pick turned out to be #42, so the Celtics didn't get it. I am unclear both as to why this pick was included in the trade at all (did the Celtics need some extra enticement to take Dooling off the Bucks' hands, but only a very small amount, i.e., the possibility but not guarantee of getting a low 2nd round pick?) and as to whether there was any special significance to setting its protection level where it was.

Miralles, meanwhile, has continued to play in Europe. According to Wikipedia, he is signed to play for a team in Germany in 2012-13. He is now 30 and it is probably unlikely he will ever play (or even attempt to play) in the NBA. But his rights are still useful to NBA teams in trades of this sort.
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Re: potential trade

Postby meej » Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:27 am

Albert Miralles is somewhat famous because of a very public trade: he left Joventut on 2002, but according to Spanish League rules he was something like a "restricted free agent", meaning that before he signed with another Spanish club he had to pay back a significant amount of money to Joventut to become a free agent (because he had been trained at the club since he was young). He left for Italy, but eventually returned to Spain in 2005. Pamesa Valencia signed him, and they went to court with Joventut to sort things out. He lost his case and he was ordered to pay a big amount of money to Joventut (too much, in my opinion). He played in Valencia for several years, and then Lagun Aro. He played last season in Italy and he has just signed with a German team.

I never understood what they saw in Miralles to draft him. He's not a bad player, but never looked like a star in the making.
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Re: potential trade

Postby John Grasso » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:07 am

At what age do European players typically join a club? And do they pay dues to be a member?
Do clubs solicit members the way U.S. schools recruit kids?

Do European secondary schools play sports?
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Re: potential trade

Postby meej » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:45 am

I can only speak confidently about Spain, but I do not think that school sports play a big part in pro basketball anywhere in Europe. In fact, the story about Marciulionis being discovered in the University league in Lithuania stresses that it was the last place one would expect to find a potentially major athlete.

In Europe, players are "developed" by clubs and national federations. Typically there are youth clubs which are either a part of a bigger, professional club (like Joventut) or they have a loose affiliation to one of such clubs (for instance, Unicaja has unofficial links to many youth clubs in Málaga). This starts when players are just kids, say 10-12 years old. They "move up" as they age, specially if they are perceived to have some potential, and play in regional youth tournaments with their club. Also, they can be selected to play national tournaments with teams arranged by the regional federation.

I mean, a young promising player will be competing in a regional club tournament as a member of his regular club, and then in the offseason play a national tournament (arranged by the National Basketball Federation) as a member of his regional team (ie Catalonia, Andalusia etc). Good players will be scouted by major clubs, and asked to join their youth "sections" or "branches". Junior teams (U16 or U18) play in more structured leagues, including some major international tournaments where they are scouted by major European and NBA clubs. They also get paid a salary, although it's not big money. This is also when the general public starts hearing of them (although "insiders" will know of them since they were "cadets").

Leagues and Federations typically recognize some sort of rights over the player for the teams and clubs that developed them, be it a right of "first refusal" or directly a monetary compensation if he signs with another club.

I'm not really into youth basketball, so this explanation is very simplistic and maybe not too clear, but I hope that it provides a general picture of player development in Europe.
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Re: potential trade

Postby D.Highmore » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:56 pm

John Grasso wrote:At what age do European players typically join a club? And do they pay dues to be a member?
Do clubs solicit members the way U.S. schools recruit kids?

Do European secondary schools play sports?


I can't speak for mainland Europe, but here in the UK top-tier teams would often host summer clinics and training sessions with players & coaches (usually sponsored by the NBA). Generally, if coaching staff saw players with potential, they'd be invited to train with either the "B" team (which would play other teams' "B" squads in an unofficial league) or the youth team, depending on age/size/skills - at least, that's how it operated in the mid-90s when the British league was at its peak. Nowadays there are many more organized teams and youth leagues (not to mention many more kids playing the sport - when I was a teenager our entire town had a single court, now there's close to 30), not to mention a decreased emphasis on the professional game over here - a talented youth player is more likely to either go straight to a Euro league or US College than join a British pro team.
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Re: potential trade

Postby mtamada » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:32 pm

D.Highmore wrote:when I was a teenager our entire town had a single court, now there's close to 30


That could be a key observation right there. Some years ago, some members of APBR claimed that pickup basketball has declined in popularity in the US. I have not observed that myself, but I do not regularly observe very many basketball courts so my range of obervation is very narrow. And many of the youths who would have been playing pickup basketball are now playing in leagues and basketball camps (but I wonder if they can provide the sheer hours that going to the neighborhod basketball court can provide). Still, if Britain's courts are growing like that, one wonders what sort of growth has occurred in countries with stronger basketball teams.

Are those 30 courts open to the public? Or reserved for club players? Or a combination -- open sometimes, reserved at other times?
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Re: potential trade

Postby D.Highmore » Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:46 am

I'd say half of the courts in my area are on school property, and I'd expect that their use would be restricted to students in term time.

The rest are in public parks/playgrounds. The closest court to me (originally built about 10 years ago but refurbished 2 years ago) in my local park is always in use, especially during the summer months. It's part of a complex including tennis courts, a football (soccer) pitch, bowling green and skate park, and gets VERY busy, especially during school holidays.

I'd say that these days, I'm as likely to see kids playing basketball as I am soccer, which is a huge turnaround from when I was growing up. It's probably the 2nd most popular sport amongst kids over here, even though coverage of the sport is virtually non-existant outside of ESPN (there's a top-flight team in the next city, about 12 miles away, although you wouldn't know the team even exists, based on the attention it gets from local media).
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Re: potential trade

Postby mtamada » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:06 pm

I spent a month in China 10 years ago; my range of observation was limited to college campuses in major cities (Shanghai, Wuhan, ChongQing), so it was a very specific demographic range that I saw. Still I did visit a lot of college campuses during that time, and based on what I saw in their outdoors athletics facilities soccer was clearly #1, basketball clearly #2, and volleyball a somewhat distant third. There wasn't really a 4th place, maybe a hodge-podge of tennis and table tennis.

Of course there are limitations to this sort of observation. The Chinese dominate table tennis probably more than any country dominates any other sport (not counting sports like American football which are dominated by the US simply because nobody else plays it). By merely walking around the college campuses outdoors, I saw very little table tennis, and thus wouldn't have been clued in to how big it is in China.

The other interesting limitation is that the Chinese clearly have a high interest in basketball, they have pro leagues and they (or at least their college students) play it a lot. But it hasn't yet translated into great success on the court, beyond obviously Yao Ming. It does take decades for a sport's culture to take root and for great players to arise indigenously, so maybe the great (NBA quality) players form China are still several years away. Ditto a wave of great players from Great Britain. (Who is the best basketball player to have been born and raised in Britain? James Donaldson was born in England but I'm pretty sure he went to high school in the US.)
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Re: potential trade

Postby MCT » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:10 pm

MCT wrote:
Mike Goodman wrote:I don't find any Albert Miralles...in the NBA records.

MCT wrote:Miralles, who is from Spain, was a second round pick in 2004. He was actually drafted by the Raptors but his rights were traded to the Heat on draft day. Since draft rights have no salary cap value, I don't see any cap-related reason why he would have needed to be included in this trade. Maybe the Celtics were legitimately interested in him, or felt his rights were more of a known quantity than what they could have gotten with a future second round pick. It looks like Miralles has never signed an NBA contract.

Since this thread was last active, Albert Miralles has moved on again, or at least his rights have. Last December, before the start of the lockout-abbreviated 2011-12 season, the Celtics sent his rights to the Bucks for Keyon Dooling and a conditional 2nd round pick. I don't know the circumstances of the trade. But I'm guessing that the Bucks wanted to get rid of Dooling, the Celtics were interested in taking him, and from the Bucks' point of view getting his salary off their books was all they really wanted; they weren't expecting any assets in return. Since something had to go on the other side of the ledger, though, the Celtics sent them Miralles' rights. According to prosportstransactions.com, Dooling was heading into the second year of a 2-year contract; b-r.com shows that he made about $2.25M in 2011-12. So it doesn't look like he had an especially big contract by NBA standards.

I don't know what the deal was with the 2nd round pick that went from Milwaukee to Boston. According to prosportstransactions.com, it was a pick in the 2012 draft that was protected if it was among the top 44 picks; the Celtics would only get it if it was in the 45-60 range. The Bucks' pick turned out to be #42, so the Celtics didn't get it. I am unclear both as to why this pick was included in the trade at all (did the Celtics need some extra enticement to take Dooling off the Bucks' hands, but only a very small amount, i.e., the possibility but not guarantee of getting a low 2nd round pick?) and as to whether there was any special significance to setting its protection level where it was.

Miralles, meanwhile, has continued to play in Europe. According to Wikipedia, he is signed to play for a team in Germany in 2012-13. He is now 30 and it is probably unlikely he will ever play (or even attempt to play) in the NBA. But his rights are still useful to NBA teams in trades of this sort.

Miralles' NBA rights are on the move again. They were traded twice on July 7, the day after the annual July moratorium ended.

First, Milwaukee traded Miralles' rights to Cleveland for Matthew Dellavedova. Dellavedova was a restricted free agent, and the deal was a sign-and-trade to send him to the team he wanted to sign with. There were presumably salary cap advantages for both teams to structure Dellavedova's move to Milwaukee as a trade (I'm sure they wouldn't have done so had this not been the case). By technically trading Dellavedova rather than losing him as a free agent, Cleveland put a trade exception on its books. Trading Miralles' rights allowed Milwaukee to satisfy the requirement that they give up some 'asset' in the trade, yet at the same time not give up anything of any real value.

Cleveland almost immediately turned around and traded Miralles' rights to Chicago for Mike Dunleavy Jr. and the NBA rights to Vladimir Veremeenko. Chicago was looking to move Dunleavy off its books so it could clear cap space to sign other players as free agents. Cleveland was interested in Dunleavy, and Chicago probably wasn't really looking to get anything of value in return for him (getting his salary off their books was what they really wanted). So once again, Miralles' rights came in handy as something that could satisfy the requirement that a team give up some 'asset' in a trade, yet at the same time be of essentially no value. This trade may have been possible from Cleveland's point of view only through the use of a trade exception, possibly even the same one created in the Dellavedova trade.

Vladimir Veremeenko, whose rights were also acquired by Cleveland in the Dunleavy trade, is a player from Belarus whose NBA rights seem to be in the same position as Miralles'. Veremeenko was drafted by the Wizards in the 2nd round of the 2006 draft, but he has never signed an NBA contract. The Wizards traded his rights to the Bulls in July 2010 for Kirk Hinrich and the rights to 1st round pick Kevin Seraphin, a trade that was probably similar in concept to the Dunleavy trade (i.e., a salary dump where the Bulls probably weren't looking to get any assets of value; the Wizards likely essentially got Seraphin in exchange for taking Hinrich). I see no obvious reason why Veremeenko's rights needed to be included in the Dunleavy trade. I have to wonder if Cleveland asked for them so that they could acquire the rights to player of this type for future use, to replace the ones (Miralles') they were trading away.
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