Converting ABA numbers to NBA

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Converting ABA numbers to NBA

Postby penbeast » Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:12 pm

About two years ago, someone gave me a conversion chart for discounting ABA numbers to rough equivalent NBA numbers based on per minute stats of players who changed leagues. I found it quite valuable and don't see one here so here it is (this is not my work, wish it was):

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/APBR/message/16704

I've fired up the old growler and scribbled the conversion rates,
for your perusal. There's a lot of uncertainty, and the numbers go
in fits and starts; but there's a trend or two.

year min sco reb ast SS#
1968 .38 .64 .80 .90 782
1969 .73 .72 .85 .90 125
1970 .46 .80 .88 .90 611
1971 .74 .86 .90 .95 365
1972 .91 .90 .92 1.0 529
1973 .97 .91 .92 1.0 316
1974 .61 .92 .94 1.0 347
1975 .87 .92 .95 1.0 358
1976 .80 .92 .96 1.0 3425

The Minutes column is (NBA Min)/(ABA Min) -- averaged over the
sample for that year. In 1968, several players' rates are compared
to their last previous NBA season, which in some cases were 2-4
years prior.

Sco, Reb, and Ast are actually derived from averages of several
estimates: straight average, minutes-weighted, 3-year average, and
3-year/weighted by minutes. Then just smoothed over.

Assists are so jumpy, I just crudely estimated them.

SS# is the sample size in player-games considered. (The small 1969
sample is largely one guy: Rick Barry.)

Since 1970 was the biggest sample year between the ABA's beginning
and end; and it's the last year I'm calling it "minor-league", lets
examine the sample of comers/goers who were in the ABA that year:

Haywood, Melchionni, Barnhill, Raymond, Dove, Orms, Niemann, Olsen,
Hamilton, Warlick, Kron, Workman.

If you've only heard of the first couple, don't feel lost; these are
in descending order of ABA minutes for 1970, and most were not
impact players.

Of this dirty dozen, only Tommy Kron got fewer ABA minutes than he
had in the NBA.

Of the 12, only Hamilton and Warlick (bit players, too) had a better
effective shooting % in the NBA.

Those same 2 were the only ones with better scoring rates in the NBA.

Melchionni and Barnhill had better rebound rates in the NBA, along
with Kron. These guys were guards with few rebounds in either
league.

Only Warlick had a better assist rate in the NBA.

In all, their minutes more than doubled in the ABA (or halved, if
they were going the other way). Eff% averaged 8% higher in the
ABA. Scoring rates were only 74% as good in the NBA; Rebounding
87%; Assists 68%.

These are per-minute rates. Compounded by the doubling of minutes,
the actual production was more than twice as great in the ABA.

From this type of evidence (playerstats standardized year-by-year),
I can't agree that ABA competition was equal to NBA competition, in
1970.

But if you scroll back up to the chart, you'll see within 2 years
the competetive difference had been cut in half.


And the 1976 figures should be strengthened for the ABA. Last year
we pretty much concurred that the dual effects of contraction (to
1977 NBA) and joining new teams might account for the majority of
the difference.
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Postby Mike Goodman » Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:40 pm

If points (FG) come 10% more easily in the 1972 ABA, and the granting of assists is 10% stingier (per FG), then assists are just as legit in either league. Hence the 1.0 conversion for that year.

Penbeast, what use have you made of these conversions? Not many stat people really give a darn about the old days. Most who do, declare for an all-or-nothing stance towards ABA totals: Damn those middling percents.

Keith, "many" is not a quantity nor a percentage. Virtually all ABA vets who got better numbers in the NBA were younger, and presumably improving. But we knew that, right?

Don Buse had 689 assists in 1976 and 685 in '77. Per-minute, he got 15% more after Keller's retirement. Next year his role would change some more (in Phx), and he'd only get about 2/3 as many.
In '76, 56% of Pacers' FG were assisted, and in '77 it was 57%.
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Postby Mike Goodman » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:10 pm

Rick Barry: Along with Joe Caldwell, the poster children for ABA 'slacking'. Whether attributable to injuries, displeasure with the coach, or whatever, these guys went to the ABA and largely snoozed their way thru. I'm sure they would argue, but their stats don't measure up.

Of players who did even 100 minutes in an NBA season, plus similar in the ABA, Caldwell represents the first guy to actually shoot worse in the ABA.
Code: Select all
Player         year  NBA team   Eff%   Eff%  year  ABA team   
Gary Bradds     1965   Bal      .481   .532   1968   Oak   
Cliff Hagan     1966   StL      .485   .545   1968   Dal   
Reggie Harding  1967   Chi Det  .451   .468   1968   Ind   
Art Heyman      1965   Cin NY   .463   .512   1968   Pgh NJ
Wayne Hightower 1967   Det Bal  .404   .459   1968   Den   
Les Hunter      1965   Bal      .296   .457   1968   Min   
Freddie Lewis   1967   Cin      .429   .496   1968   Ind   
Ben Warley      1967   Bal      .484   .524   1968   Ana
 
Rick Barry      1967   SF       .520   .599   1969   Oak   
Connie Hawkins  1970   Phe      .549   .569   1969   Min   
George Lehmann  1968   Atl      .399   .509   1969   LA   
Bill McGill     1965   LA StL   .374   .571   1969   Den
 
John Barnhill   1969   Bal      .460   .466   1970   Ind   
Spencer Haywood 1971   Sea      .494   .536   1970   Den   
Bill Melchionni 1968   Phl      .452   .514   1970   NY
 
Zelmo Beaty     1969   Atl      .514   .598   1971   Uta   
Joe Caldwell    1970   Atl      .538   .466   1971   Car   
Neil Johnson    1969   Phe      .495   .558   1971   Va   
Dave Lattin     1969   Phe      .452   .496   1971   Pgh   
Ray Scott       1970   Bal      .472   .489   1971   Va   
Al Tucker       1971   Bal      .526   .497   1971   Fla   

Even with the narrowing disparity, these 21 players averaged shooting .464 in the NBA (effective%) and .517 in the ABA. Some guys who could get no minutes in the NBA went to starting for early ABA teams.
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Postby Keith Ellis » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:43 pm

Mike Goodman wrote:Rick Barry: Along with Joe Caldwell, the poster children for ABA 'slacking'. Whether attributable to injuries, displeasure with the coach, or whatever, these guys went to the ABA and largely snoozed their way thru. I'm sure they would argue, but their stats don't measure up.


You must've never seen them play. Rick Barry took his team to the Finals, beating the wunderkind 68-16 Colonels. Cougar Joe Caldwell gave us the closest thing to a pre-Pressey preview of defender/stealer/playmaker Scottie Pippen; Pogo Joe was a fine FG (but not FT) shooter in both leagues.

Stat-keeping doesn't enable us to read the minds of Barry & Caldwell. Better to judge them by their numbers & documentable team/individual results, so that Franklin Miueli & Tedd Munnchak don't become the gatekeepers of Bkb Heaven.


Some guys who could get no minutes in the NBA went to starting for early ABA teams.


John Stockton warmed the bench his first several seasons in Utah. Drazen Petrovic couldn't get minutes before starting for the playoff-bound Nets. Larry Bird Himself couldn't hack the '75 Hoosiers; was Bird, likewise, inferior to Scottie May & Tommy Abernethy? W/in a season he was leading the NCAA in scoring.

The anecdotal approach doesn't hold water. Some players perform better in different settings. Others don't. Dons Chaney & Adams jumped over from tough NBA playoff teams & kept up their defense but didn't notch better numbers in St Louis in their late Twenties than they had as NBA youngsters.

Had Charlie Scott fizzled, or Spencer Haywood swooned, or Artis Gilmore not shot a stratospheric Dipper-esque 67% in the N-BA, the above examples of Heyman & Lehman, Bradds & Barnhill might resound. As it is, these unknowns are small anomalous pieces of the pie. No NBA star came to the ABA & statistically took the younger league by storm. Plenty of ABA vets matched or bettered in the NBA what numbers they'd posted previously. Several won scoring & rebounding titles that they hadn't approached in the ABA. Many made NBA AllStar/All-League/All-D Teams despite the pesky prejudice (which ironically in ignorance is greater today than when the leagues merged). If the ABA players who eventually copped NBA honors were so "good" & the ABA vets who didn't live long enough to thrive in the NBA were dockably bad, how could Mel double-MVP in the league of Barry & Issel? How could Dampier string together back-to-back 200-HR seasons, something no NBA vet in any league approached for 25 years?

For every Fred Lewis who languished on the Cincy bench before finding New Life on the Pacers, there's a Bob Love who did the same in the N-BA. Why should we believe ButterBean would've scored higher than 25.8 ppg in the '72 ABA? For every Don Buse who sat behind Fritzie in Indiana before going on to lead the NBA in Assists & Steals, there're the Walt Wesleys & Bob Kauffmans who couldn't get court time behind ButterBean & Boerwinkle before growing into 20-ppg men (Kauffman became a fine passing forward, too).

Yes, we can point at the ABA vets whose careers didn't continue on in the NBA. But look at all the NBA players whose statistical fortunes quickly plunged post-Merger: Bing, Archibald, McAdoo, Cowens, Westphal, Hondo, Maravich, Stormin' Norm, Phils Smith & Chenier, Slick Watts, Jo Jo White, Walt Frazier, Jimmy McMillian, John Shumate, Gail Goodrich. Jabbar was nigh the only NBAer who thrived into the Eighties, & he originally wanted to be a NY Net. Mere coincidence?
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Postby Mike Goodman » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:26 pm

The anomalies aren't the guys who constitute 95% of the sample, they're the other 5%: Caldwell, et al.
Shooting isn't everything, but it's something. As shown above, 19 of 21 players shot better in the 1968-71 ABA, than in an adjacent NBA season.

From '72 and '73, zero of 13 players shot better in the NBA.

From '74 and '75, 2 of 17 players shot worse in the ABA: Bruce Seals (at the beginning of his pro career) and Wali Jones (at the end of his).

From the contracted 1976 ABA, 23 of 54 (43%) would go on to better shooting in the 1977 NBA.

Billy C's shooting% jumped .035 when he jumped to the Cougars; and dropped .045 when he went back to Philly. Barry's jacked up .079 with the Oaks and sagged .038 going back. Artis dropped only .028 .
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Postby Mike Goodman » Mon Jul 07, 2008 3:48 pm

Keith Ellis wrote:... No NBA star came to the ABA & statistically took the younger league by storm. ...

Most movement by 'star' players was the other way. A handful of NBA stars who migrated to the ABA eventually moved back.

The 1967 all-NBA Rick Barry was 9th in 'true shooting %' . Then he led the ABA, twice. He led the ABA in Pts/G once, and was #2 in his other 3 years.

NBA Zelmo Beaty had hit #8 in FG%, and then he led the ABA; 2nd alltime in the ABA. As good as 7th in NBA 'PER', he led the ABA in '71.

Going to Carolina, Billy C's FG% jumped from .461 to .491; Reb% from 14.3 to 16.0; and he won MVP.

Anyone else qualify as star?
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Postby Keith Ellis » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:48 am

Mike Goodman wrote:The 1967 all-NBA Rick Barry was 9th in 'true shooting %' . Then he led the ABA, twice. He led the ABA in Pts/G once, and was #2 in his other 3 years.


Oh, now we get it. ABA-defenders can't 'count' Gervin & Moses' NBA dominance because they were young players developing into their primes. But Rick Barry's two half-seasons w/ Earl Foreman, when he shot nearly 50% at the age of 24-25 (w/ Rajah right behind him), are fair to contrast w/ his Warrior shooting. Whither Barry's Nets seasons, when his FG% was very much more Warrior-like?

NBA Zelmo Beaty had hit #8 in FG%, and then he led the ABA; 2nd alltime in the ABA. As good as 7th in NBA 'PER', he led the ABA in '71.


The only pre-Merger pros listed ahead of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in alltime ABA/NBA & NBA-only True Shooting % are Artis Gilmore, Bobby Jones, & Darryl Dawkins, who cut his teeth w/ ABA frontcourtmen Mix, Mac, & Doc. Next man down the list after K A-J is Virginia Squire Sven Nater. Gilmore, BTW, replicates Zelmo in reverse as an ABA vet ranked #1 in alltime NBA TS%.

Going to Carolina, Billy C's FG% jumped from .461 to .491; Reb% from 14.3 to 16.0; and he won MVP.


Billy C's MVP really rankled Jerry West, who devoutly desired the day to come when a Center wouldn't MVP in the pros, but hoped to match Oscar & win one himself. After all, Cougar Cunningham at 29 didn't score or rebound better than he'd already done in Philly at 25 & 26. His best passing-per-minute years were enjoyed w/ the Sixers. Billy's Errors in the ABA look higher than they would've been in the NBA; mightn't that mean he was marked better? ABA Forwards defended disproportionately well in the NBA -- BJones, Barry, ML Carr, CJones, Erving, McGinnis, Roundfield all finished high in steals/blocks &/or All-D nominations. The NBA never got to see Doug Moe, whom Barry called a better-scoring Dave DeBusschere or a healthy Willie Wise, universally considered the ABA's best-defending wingman.

It's a good point -- Cunningham MVPd in the ABA, not the NBA. I think Cunningham's MVP was just another example of the ABA looking to the future midsizer-dominated game. Still, Zelmo in his best year couldn't cop MVP ahead of Mel Daniels. These arguments always cut both ways. Only rookies in the ABA/NBA era to MVP were Unseld & A-Train; which was the better choice of the two?
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Postby Mike Goodman » Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:05 am

Keith Ellis wrote:... ABA-defenders can't 'count' Gervin & Moses' NBA dominance because they were young players developing into their primes. ...Whither Barry's Nets seasons, when his FG% was very much more Warrior-like?

No need to be defensive; facts are facts. Gervin was counted among the 43% of ABA players who entered the NBA and whose shooting% improved. In fact, he improved again from '77 to '78. He was busting out.

Moses' consecutive-seasons are a bit muddled by his injury in 1976, missing half the year. His rookie ('75) efficiency didn't return until '79.

But I think we agree that the 1976 ABA had attained virtual equivalence with the NBA, in terms of strength of average opponent. The ABA was just less homogeneous, with more superstars and more scrubby types, per team.

As for Barry, it was already mentioned that his Eff% changed just half as much from '72 to '73, as it had from '67 to '69 (his 2 league-changes). This is consistent with the upgrade in ABA quality during his 4-year stay. In '69, he was one of the top 2-3 stars in the league; by '72, just one of the top 10 or so.

Barry's ABA 'slacking' was as a rebounder and a passer. In the NBA, he had been (and would be) more than a scoring specialist. But if you check this page, and scroll down to the 'Advanced' section, note the columns 'PER', 'TS%', and 'eFG%'. ABA years stand out for how high they are, relative to the NBA backdrop:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... yri01.html
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Postby Keith Ellis » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:30 pm

Mike Goodman wrote:...I think we agree that the 1976 ABA had attained virtual equivalence with the NBA, in terms of strength of average opponent. The ABA was just less homogeneous, with more superstars and more scrubby types, per team.



Yes, let's agree to agree. Where we seem to disagree is regarding the late-Sixties ABA's competitiveness. Robert Bradley & others have noted in so many words that the BAA was an expansion league akin to Commissioner Mikan's league, yet the statistics of Fulks & Zaslofsky (who coached in the ABA) aren't given historical short shrift in comparison to Player Mikan's league, the established NBL. My suspicion is that once the ABA veteran stars are all dead & un-inducted to the HoF, docking their stats won't matter so much, just as nobody today goes thru the exercise of docking Max & Jumpin' Joe.

Would The Hawk have averaged 26.8 ppg in the NBA of 1968, before succumbing to knee injury? I can't see why not -- he scored 24.6 ppg in the 1970 NBA after the knee popped. Did Connie score so well in Phoenix because the NBA was Declining in the face of ABA competition? One can surmise thusly ad-infinitum.

Were Mel Daniels & Roger Brown not likely capable of posting the same #s in the NBA that they put up for the Pacers? Can't see why not -- they led the Pacers to repeat titles in the era of A-Train. Did Daniels' scoring/rebounding drop eventually? Yes, because McGinnis joined the club -- go figure. No ABA rookie took a laughingstock team to the top as quickly as Alcindor did. Spencer Haywood's 30/20 season of 1970 can seem suspect, but it was largely a matter of MPG (& nothing's wrong w/ stamina).

From their initial season onward the ABA vets labored in a Modern Game that tracked Opponents' Defensive FG% (the Denver Rockets' .399 is still best-recorded Dee of all time), Offensive Rebounds, Errors, & HRs (something the NBA this side of Harvey Pollack never dreamed of). ABA contributions thus are more comparable to those of the NBA after Bird & Magic joined than they are to the oldtime Sixties league of J Walter Kennedy. Differences in Tempo & Style of play, the greater emphasis on Defense, & the undeniable fact of so many Sixties ABA players who excelled into the pre-Charlie Finley ABA make the case-by-case studies moot, or mere matters of minutes.

Sure, Sixties survivor Louie Dampier hit 83% of his FTAs in the ABA & only 75% in the N-BA. But Louie also shot 49% FGs in the Merged League versus just 44% w/ the red-white-blue ball. Changes in latitudes, changes in aptitudes.
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Postby Mike Goodman » Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:38 pm

I can't see why we shouldn't have snowfall in July, in Indiana. Does that make it likely?
People argue against global warming, remembering that "we've had hot summers ever since I can remember"; recalling some cold snap last April, a recent cool August, etc.
You may recollect cool spells lasting days and weeks; but unless you 'recall' the whole 365 days, you don't know if the last 12 months was really warmer or cooler than the year before, or than historic norms. Only by taking global averages, incorporating temps from every day in many locations, does a trend appear, incontrovertibly.

One can find a couple of dozen ABA players from 1976 who went to the NBA in 1977 and had better stats. And even more who didn't. Before '76, the ratio is severely biased against the ABA. But you can still find a handful of exceptions. All these players 'count' in the reckoning. And they are seriously outnumbered.

For every ABA player with a good defensive reputation, there had to be 2 or 3 whose defense was not up to NBA standards. Maybe teams just didn't have good defensive schemes. How else could such a majority of ABA players shoot a lower % in the NBA? Look to 2-point FG%, eFG%, or TS%; shooting many 3-pointers skews the ABA FG% downward.

Basketball-reference.com will give you the straight ABA numbers, at the same scale as the NBA numbers, for every year, combined or separate. Also those BAA and NBL numbers. You may treat them however you wish. I don't use anything before 1952; others may toss the ABA figures as 'invalid'.

As an 'ABA defender', I've put effort into 'validating' the stats. Giving Willie Somerset 64-72% of his 3084 ABA points ('68-69), he still gets a lot more than the 45 pts he managed to score in the NBA ('66).
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Postby Keith Ellis » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:21 pm

Mike Goodman wrote:I can't see why we shouldn't have snowfall in July, in Indiana. Does that make it likely?


Let's flesh out these analogies. The Hawk's 26.8 ppg in the '68 ABA was "too high" by some 36%, according to the Rule of .64 for that season. So Connie really would've scored 17.2 ppg had he been playing in the '68 N-BA. Still, somehow Hawkins managed to notch 24.6 ppg on the go-go Suns of the '70 senior circuit.

Your snowfall-analogy absurdly predicts the 'probability' of ice in July. Obviously the chance for that in Indiana is nil. But the 'probability' that Connie Hawkins w/ a good knee would've scored at least 24.6 ppg in the '68 NBA, as he did w/ a bad knee in 1970, is much higher. The 64%-equivalent, saddling Hawkins w/ a 'real' PPG of 17.2 is closer to the absurd than his ABA average of 26.8, right?

Let's assume for a moment that the sample size of ABA-NBA league-jumpers is big enough to accurately make these dock-down proportions. We should be able to do so amongst the NBA & other leagues, too, then. If we examine stats-per-36 over the past ten years of ACC cagers who the next season 'jumped' to the NBA, from Tim Duncan to Chris Paul, we should be able to derive similarly-accurate Equivalents, correct? Sure, the ACC has different coaches, different teams & teammates, & some different rules than the NBA. But so did the Sixties ABA. The beauty of determining accurate ACC/NBA statistical proportions is that we'd be enabled to predict what ACC-to-NBA players' stats would be in their rookie seasons. We wouldn't get every player right, but our overarching-equivalents would accurately fit the overall rookie classes.

Significant sample sizes (bigger than Sixties ABA/NBA) also exist for NBDL-to-NBA players & vice-versa, & even New ABAlive-to-NBA pros. If we believe that classic ABA veterans' individual stats can be proportionalized to 'fit' the notion of an ultra-competitive N-BA, we must also bear witness that similar exercises can be performed for NBA players in other leagues past & present (NBL-to-BAA, ABL-to-NBA, etc).

One can find a couple of dozen ABA players from 1976 who went to the NBA in 1977 and had better stats. And even more who didn't. Before '76, the ratio is severely biased against the ABA. But you can still find a handful of exceptions. All these players 'count' in the reckoning. And they are seriously outnumbered.


We've already noted Tiny Archibald, Bob McAdoo, Rick Barry, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Dave Cowens, Bob Love, Jo Jo White, Sid Wicks, John Havlicek, Wes Unseld, Spencer Haywood, & many other N-BA stars also saw their stats decline after the Merger Year. Scorers like Jimmy Walker & Archie Clark disappeared altogether. I remember the disdain displayed toward Big Red Walton's laughably-low league-leading RPG of 14.4 in the Merger Year. We oughtn't cherry-pick declining stats of ABA vets w/out performing a similar examination of NBA veterans. Pre-Merger NBA vets whose stat-production rose after 1976 were just as outnumbered as their ABA counterparts.

You realize, of course, that after the fusion the only NBA vets to lead the Merged League in Points/Rebs/Assists were Pistol Pete, his teammate Truck Robinson, Kareem, & sparkplug Kevin Porter? They're equalled by Gervin, Nater, Moses, & Buse. NBA pre-Merger MVPs in the post-Merger era, Jabbar & Walton, are matched by Moses & Doc.

For every ABA player with a good defensive reputation, there had to be 2 or 3 whose defense was not up to NBA standards.


ABA pre-Merger pros took 4 of ten spots on the All-D Teams of 1977. They took 4 of 10 in 1978 (Quinn Buckner didn't play pre-Merger). Five of eight in 1979 (DJ & Fast Eddie came along post-Merger; DJ said he'd've preferred to play in the ABA if he could've). Three of seven in 1980. Three of six in 1981. Three of three in 1982, & 3-3 in 1983. Two of three in 1984. The last pre-Merger player to make All-D was Bobby Jones in 1985.

Thus from 1977 to 1985 -- the exact same time length as the nine-year duration of the red-white-blue league -- the ABA placed pre-Merger pros on the All-D Teams 28 of 51 times. The ABA had half as many teams as the NBA, but who outnumbered whom, defensively?

Sure, there had to be poor defenders in the ABA. But sure as my name is Johnny Drew, the average stalwart-leaguer defended just as poorly. The circuit of Brian Taylor didn't award Rookie of the Year to somebody called Ernie No-D.
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Postby Gabe Farkas » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:56 pm

Mike Goodman wrote:One can find a couple of dozen ABA players from 1976 who went to the NBA in 1977 and had better stats. And even more who didn't. Before '76, the ratio is severely biased against the ABA. But you can still find a handful of exceptions. All these players 'count' in the reckoning. And they are seriously outnumbered.

For every ABA player with a good defensive reputation, there had to be 2 or 3 whose defense was not up to NBA standards. Maybe teams just didn't have good defensive schemes. How else could such a majority of ABA players shoot a lower % in the NBA? Look to 2-point FG%, eFG%, or TS%; shooting many 3-pointers skews the ABA FG% downward.

First, let me say that I can definitely see an argument for docking ABA numbers. If it were me, I would probably do so as well.

However, I would think if you dock ABA numbers because the talent pool was weak, wouldn't you want also to do so for the NBA during the same period? If the argument is that a good portion of the stars were in the NBA, so ABA players got their numbers against weaker competition, then wouldn't NBA players also be doing the same? There were stars in the ABA too, so weren't NBA players also getting their numbers against weaker competition?
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Postby Mike Goodman » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:30 pm

The 'docking' that I have applied to ABA numbers are relative to NBA numbers for the same year. For example, a 1971 ABA rebound is considered to be worth .90 NBA rebound in 1971. Most league-jumpers are actually compared to the NBA year before or the year after; so the assumptions are made that the NBA doesn't change a lot from one year to the next, and that these things average out.

If a 1971 NBA rebound is then deemed to be worth only (say) .92 of a rebound from some arbitrary base season (1977 ?), then one could dock 1971 NBA rebounds to 92% of their value.

Then, of course, the 1971 ABA Reb would = .90 x .92 = .83 of a 'standard' Reb. It's still .90 of the same-year NBA Reb.

In this thread -- http://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673
-- we got into the possible quantification of yearly NBA strength. The 1971 NBA Reb may well be around .92 of the 1977 Reb.
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Postby Gabe Farkas » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:50 pm

Mike Goodman wrote:The 'docking' that I have applied to ABA numbers are relative to NBA numbers for the same year. For example, a 1971 ABA rebound is considered to be worth .90 NBA rebound in 1971. Most league-jumpers are actually compared to the NBA year before or the year after; so the assumptions are made that the NBA doesn't change a lot from one year to the next, and that these things average out.

I understand your rationale behind the docking, and that's exactly what I was questioning. Why dock the ABA but not the NBA as well, if both leagues were diluted?

Mike Goodman wrote:If a 1971 NBA rebound is then deemed to be worth only (say) .92 of a rebound from some arbitrary base season (1977 ?), then one could dock 1971 NBA rebounds to 92% of their value.

Then, of course, the 1971 ABA Reb would = .90 x .92 = .83 of a 'standard' Reb. It's still .90 of the same-year NBA Reb.

No, no, no. That's just docking the ABA rebound even further. I meant you should independently dock both of them relative to 1977 NBA, and then determine the comparative value of 1971 ABA vs 1971 NBA through the relative docking.

If you're going to say rebounds were easier to get in the 1971 ABA because of talent dilution and stars in the other league, wouldn't this hold true for the 1971 NBA as well? After all, those rebounds in the 1971 ABA were pulled down by somebody, weren't they? And that somebody was spending their time in the ABA, instead of competing for boards with NBA players.
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Postby MCT » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:45 pm

I think the bottom line is this: this type of calculation is always going to be an inexact science. Ultimately, the numbers that Mike comes up with are a rough estimate of the relative competitive difference between the two leagues. At that level, I think Mike's analysis is very interesting, and for the most part the numbers intuitively "make sense" to me (i.e., showing the ABA as very weak relative to the NBA in the beginning, rapidly gaining strength in the early '70s, and coming pretty close to parity by the end).

The more you break it down towards one particular player's stats for one particular year, though, the less reliable it probably is. Here's an extreme example: There were a lot of guys getting significant minutes in the ABA in 1967-68 and 1968-69 who, had they tried to make an NBA team in one of those seasons, likely would have either been cut, or had they managed to make a team, would have wound up firmly planted on the far end of the bench (Willie Somerset, who Mike mentioned upthread, is an example). Most of these players would not have achieved 38% of their ABA minutes played or 64% of their ABA points in the NBA. Some likely would have achieved 0% in both catgeories. On the other hand, players like Rick Barry, Mel Daniels and Connie Hawkins were clearly good enough to play in the contemporary NBA, and likely would have exceeded 38% of their ABA minutes and/or 64% of their ABA points had they played in the ABA. The 38% and 64% calculations are leaguewide averages, and a given player may have been well above or below average. But leaguewide averages are likely the best we can do; there's probably no feasible way to break things down to a player-by-player level.

Everything is relative. Even if we agree that the level of competitiveness in a given league in a given season is x, there are going to be variations within that league that season that are probably impossible to control for. Player A may have had better stats than Player B, but if Player A was on a weak, injury-ridden team with a shortage of players at his position, and Player B was coming off the bench for a contending team, Player A's stats may have been inflated relative to Player B.

While this would be true for any league in any year, this effect is probably particularly exaggerated for the mid-to-late years of the ABA, before the league started to contract in 1975. I have a hard time believing that stats run up for, say, the 1974-75 Memphis Sounds, are anywhere near "equal" to stats run up playing for one of the better, more stable ABA franchises. GMs in the post-contraction ABA and post-merger NBA seemed to agree. Of the 14 players who saw action for the Sounds that year, only three were still in the big leagues at the end of the following season, and only two (Tom Owens and Chuck Williams) made it to the end of the inaugural season of the post-merger NBA. Nine Sounds players got at least 895 minutes that season. Beyond the point early in the 1975-76 season where the ABA was reduced to seven teams, the players on the 895+ minute list aside from Owens and Williams combined to appear in a grand total of 21 NBA or ABA games (Stew Johnson's 10 games with the Spurs in 1975-76, and Mel Daniels' 11 games with the Nets in 1976-77). To put this in perspective, of the 11 players who saw action for the Nuggets in 1974-75, nine made it to the ABA's end, all of whom were still active at the end of the 1976-77 season. Only one player with more than 895 minutes failed to make it past ABA contraction.

Keith Ellis wrote:Only rookies in the ABA/NBA era to MVP were Unseld & A-Train; which was the better choice of the two?

Spencer Haywood, too.

Keith Ellis wrote:Significant sample sizes (bigger than Sixties ABA/NBA) also exist for NBDL-to-NBA players & vice-versa, & even New ABAlive-to-NBA pros. If we believe that classic ABA veterans' individual stats can be proportionalized to 'fit' the notion of an ultra-competitive N-BA, we must also bear witness that similar exercises can be performed for NBA players in other leagues past & present (NBL-to-BAA, ABL-to-NBA, etc).

Mike, if you ever find yourself with a lot of free time on your hands, I'd love to see the same type of analysis you've done for the ABA applied to the early '60s ABL. I'd be curious to know how the ABL compared to the first few years of the ABA.
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Postby Mike Goodman » Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:09 pm

MCT wrote:... players like Rick Barry, Mel Daniels and Connie Hawkins were clearly good enough to play in the contemporary NBA, and likely would have exceeded 38% of their ABA minutes and/or 64% of their ABA points had they played in the ABA. .

No doubt you mean to say "had they played in the NBA". In any case, I've never docked ABA seasons based on 'equivalent NBA minutes'. Because I'm an incorrigible ABA fan, I leave the minutes 'as is' and just dock the per-minute rates. Freddie Lewis, after all, may have hooked up with one of those expansion teams in the NBA, and gotten the same 38 mpg.

There's plenty of evidence that the Pacers were an island of continuity in an ever-changing sea of player movements, in the early ABA. Donnie Freeman and Warren Jabali were ABA allstars who hardly scratched the stats leader-lists during their Pacers stints. Freddie moved to the Spirits and busted out, stat-wise.

Every team, in either league, played with a known team/opponent points/rebounds per-game average. I can state with a fair certainty that Mel Daniels and Wes Unseld were the best rebounders in 1969-70 (Russell retired, Wilt on the sidelines). Too close to call one or the other.
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Postby Keith Ellis » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:59 pm

Shamefacedly I just noticed Big Mel shot a woeful 40.8% in his rookie season. He also topped 500 Offensive Rebounds for the only time in his career. Rookies hitting the Off glass hard, as MikeG has taught, are not so remarkable. One wonders whether Mel got alot of those Off Rebs from his own misses, Moses Malone-style, back in '68.

1968 was also the season the Denver Rockets set the still-standing pro bkb record for stingiest Team Defensive FG%. Despite popular perception it wasn't always "easy to score" in the classic ABA. Mel's Minnesota must have one of the lowest Team Offensive FG%s ever for a 50-win ballclub.
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Postby Mike Goodman » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:17 pm

I'm not aware of any source for ABL statistics, but if anyone can point them out, I can give a try. If there aren't many players going to/from the NBA, the equivalencies will not be convincing, though.

Before 1952, minutes are not recorded; before 1951 they didn't even track rebounds. So I doubt anything useful would come of that era.

Regarding the 'stinginess' of defenses, I think it has to be relative to a norm. In a playoff series, your opponent may have averaged 110 points coming in; if you hold them to 100, you've done well. If they had averaged 90 and they score 100 on you, that's not good.

The overall ABA FG% climbed from .420 at its outset to .470 by 1973 . Relative to average opposition, here are what I'd call each years 'stingiest', by straight FG%:
Code: Select all
year   ABAFG%  best DFG%  diff
1968   .420   Den  .400  -.020
1969   .436   Dal  .422  -.014
1970   .445   NO   .435  -.010
1971   .455   Uta  .431  -.024
1972   .461   Ky   .442  -.019
1973   .470   Uta  .446  -.024
1974   .460   NY   .445  -.015
1975   .473   Ky   .446  -.027
1976   .466   Ky   .446  -.020

The '68 Nuggs (Rockets) held opponents .020 below their normal shooting. The Gilmore Colonels and Zelmo/Wise Stars were stingier, relative to better competition.

Meanwhile, over in the NBA (which didn't count opponent shooting until '71:
Code: Select all
year   NBAFG%  best DFG%  diff
1971   .449   Mil  .424  -.025
1972   .455   Mil  .420  -.035
1973   .456   Mil  .422  -.034
1974   .459   Mil  .425  -.034
1975   .457   Was  .438  -.019
1976   .458   Was  .442  -.016
In a league with more teams (and perhaps less parity) it's not surprising there are greater defensive differences between teams.
As FG% rises thru the decade, these Bucks' standards are not approached. Later teams that set marks:
Code: Select all
1981   .486   Phl  .451  -.035
1989   .477   Uta  .434  -.043

In the Bad-Boys era, it wasn't the Pistons but the Eaton Jazz hitting this defensive pinnacle. I don't know if there's a better one.
`
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Postby MCT » Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:01 pm

ABL stats are available on the APBR web site, at http://www.apbr.org/ablstats.html

For reference, here’s a register of ABL players who also played in the NBA. The original list of players was obtained from a post by John Grasso on the old APBR Yahoo board (I’ve also included Jerry Lucas, even though he never actually appeared in an ABL game). All seasons between the player’s first and last appearances in the NBA, ABL or ABA are shown. If a season is shown as blank, that means the player did not appear in any of those leagues that season. The numbers after the team names are GP and PPG. Draft info and NBA/ABA stats were obtained from b-r.com; ABL stats were obtained from the APBR page at the link above. In cases where a player played for more than one team/league in a single season, I did my best to list the teams/leagues in correct chronological order, but cannot promise complete accuracy. In such cases, stats are separated by league, but not by teams within the same league. Note that the ABL folded with the 1962-63 season in progress.

Bob Anderegg
Drafted: Knicks 3rd round, 1959
1959-60 New York 33, 4.0
1960-61
1961-62 Hawaii (ABL) 6, 6.0

Dick Barnett
Drafted: Nationals 1st round, 1959
1959-60 Syracuse 57, 12.4
1960-61 Syracuse 78, 16.9
1961-62 Cleveland (ABL) 50, 26.5
1962-63 Los Angeles 80, 18.0
1963-64 Los Angeles 78, 18.4
1964-65 Los Angeles 74, 13.8
1965-66 New York 75, 23.1
1966-67 New York 67, 17.0
1967-68 New York 81, 18.0
1968-69 New York 82, 17.6
1969-70 New York 82, 14.9
1970-71 New York 82, 15.5
1971-72 New York 79, 12.2
1972-73 New York 51, 3.8
1973-74 New York 5, 4.4

John Barnhill
Drafted: Hawks 6th round, 1959
1961-62 Cleveland (ABL) 75, 11.3
1962-63 St. Louis 77, 11.7
1963-64 St. Louis 74, 6.6
1964-65 St. Louis 41, 7.0
1965-66 St. Louis-Detroit 76, 7.9
1966-67 Baltimore 53, 8.3
1967-68 San Diego 75, 9.9
1968-69 Baltimore 30, 6.4
1969-70 Indiana (ABA) 77, 11.4
1970-71 Indiana-Denver (ABA) 67, 7.3
1971-72 Indiana (ABA) 19, 3.6

Whitey Bell
1959-60 New York 31, 5.4
1960-61 New York 5, 3.0
1961-62 San Francisco (ABL) 71, 12.4
1962-63 Pittsburgh (ABL) 7, 9.8

Bill Bridges
Drafted: Packers 3rd round, 1961
1961-62 Kansas City (ABL) 79, 21.4
1962-63 Kansas City (ABL) 29, 29.2; then St. Louis 27, 6.1
1963-64 St. Louis 80, 8.5
1964-65 St. Louis 79, 11.5
1965-66 St. Louis 78, 13.0
1966-67 St. Louis 79, 17.4
1967-68 St. Louis 82, 15.6
1968-69 Atlanta 80, 11.8
1969-70 Atlanta 82, 14.8
1970-71 Atlanta 82, 11.9
1971-72 Atlanta-Philadelphia 78, 12.6
1972-73 Philadelphia-Los Angeles 82, 10.3
1973-74 Los Angeles 65, 8.4
1974-75 Los Angeles-Golden State 32, 2.7

Nat Clifton
1950-51 New York 65, 8.6
1951-52 New York 62, 10.6
1952-53 New York 70, 10.6
1953-54 New York 72, 9.6
1954-55 New York 72, 13.1
1955-56 New York 64, 8.8
1956-57 New York 71, 10.7
1957-58 Detroit 68, 7.7
1958-59
1959-60
1960-61
1961-62 Chicago (ABL) 61, 8.5

Larry Comley
Drafted: Packers 10th round, 1961
1961-62 Kansas City (ABL) 36, 11.9
1962-63
1963-64 Baltimore 12, 2.1

Gene Conley
Drafted: Celtics, 1952
1952-53 Boston 39, 2.3
1953-54
1954-55
1955-56
1956-57
1957-58
1958-59 Boston 50, 4.2
1959-60 Boston 71, 6.7
1960-61 Boston 75, 6.3
1961-62 Wash/N.Y. (ABL) 45, 8.2
1962-63 New York 70, 9.0
1963-64 New York 46, 4.2

Johnny Cox
Drafted: Knicks 4th round, 1959
1961-62 Cleveland (ABL) 80, 18.5
1962-63 Chicago 73, 7.8

Jim Darrow
Drafted: Hawks 5th round, 1960
1961-62 St. Louis 5, 2.4; then Cleveland (ABL) 55, 8.7

Archie Dees
Drafted: Royals 1st round, 1958
1958-59 Cincinnati 68, 8.2
1959-60 Detroit 73, 9.7
1960-61 Detroit 28, 5.2
1961-62 Chicago-St. Louis 21, 6.5; then Cleveland (ABL) 34, 9.3

Connie Dierking
Drafted: Nationals 1st round, 1958
1958-59 Syracuse 64, 4.6
1959-60 Syracuse 71, 6.9
1960-61
1961-62 Wash/N.Y.–Cle. (ABL) 69, 11.8
1962-63
1963-64 Philadelphia 76, 6.5
1964-65 Philadelphia-San Francisco 68, 7.9
1965-66 Cincinnati 57, 5.6
1966-67 Cincinnati 77, 9.3
1967-68 Cincinnati 81, 16.4
1968-69 Cincinnati 82, 16.3
1969-70 Cincinnati 76, 16.7
1970-71 Cincinnati-Philadelphia 54, 5.8

Danny Doyle
Drafted: Pistons 5th round, 1961
1961-62 Pittsburgh (ABL) 8, 4.1
1962-63 Detroit 4, 4.0

Mike Farmer
Drafted: Knicks 1st round, 1958
1958-59 New York 72, 6.0
1959-60 New York 67, 7.4
1960-61 New York-Cincinnati, 59, 7.3
1961-62 San Francisco (ABL) 67, 14.3
1962-63 St. Louis 80, 7.4
1963-64 St. Louis 76, 5.6
1964-65 St. Louis 60, 6.8
1965-66 St. Louis 9, 3.3

Larry Friend
Drafted: Knicks 2nd round, 1957
1957-58 New York 44, 4.0
1958-59
1959-60
1960-61
1961-62 Los Angeles (ABL) 39, 11.0

Jerry Grote
Drafted: Hawks 4th round, 1962
1962-63 Long Beach (ABL) 24, 7.5
1963-64
1964-65 Los Angeles 11, 1.3

Dave Gunther
Drafted: Warriors 8th round, 1959
1961-62 San Francisco (ABL) 7, 9.5
1962-63 Chicago (ABL) 26, 7.4; then San Francisco 1, 2.0

Connie Hawkins
1961-62 Pittsburgh (ABL) 78, 27.5
1962-63 Pittsburgh (ABL) 16, 27.9
1963-64
1964-65
1965-66
1966-67
1967-68 Pittsburgh (ABA) 70, 26.8
1968-69 Minnesota (ABA) 47, 30.2
1969-70 Phoenix 81, 24.6
1970-71 Phoenix 71, 20.9
1971-72 Phoenix 76, 21.0
1972-73 Phoenix 75, 16.1
1973-74 Phoenix-Los Angeles 79, 12.6
1974-75 Los Angeles 43, 8.0
1975-76 Atlanta 74, 8.2

Cleo Hill
Drafted: Hawks 1st round, 1961
1961-62 St. Louis 58, 5.5
1962-63 Philadelphia (ABL) 22, 6.5

Bob Hopkins
Drafted: Nationals, 1956
1956-57 Syracuse 62, 5.7
1957-58 Syracuse 69, 8.2
1958-59 Syracuse 67, 10.0
1959-60 Syracuse 75, 8.7
1960-61
1961-62 Wash/N.Y. (ABL) 15, 4.8

Ron Horn
Drafted: Hawks 2nd round, 1961
1961-62 St. Louis 3, 1.0; then San Francisco (ABL) 53, 8.5
1962-63 Long Beach (ABL) 24, 18.7; then Los Angeles 28, 2.6
1963-64
1964-65
1965-66
1966-67
1967-68 Denver (ABA) 1, 2.0

Andy Johnson
1958-59 Philadelphia 67, 6.9
1959-60 Philadelphia 75, 8.2
1960-61 Philadelphia 79, 9.6
1961-62 Chicago 71, 14.3
1962-63 Philadelphia (ABL) 28, 11.2

Neil Johnston
1951-52 Philadelphia 64, 6.0
1952-53 Philadelphia 70, 22.3
1953-54 Philadelphia 72, 24.4
1954-55 Philadelphia 72, 22.7
1955-56 Philadelphia 70, 22.1
1956-57 Philadelphia 69, 22.8
1957-58 Philadelphia 71, 19.5
1958-59 Philadelphia 28, 6.3
1959-60
1960-61
1961-62 Pittsburgh (ABL) 5, 9.8
(Note: Johnston was the head coach of the Pittsburgh Rens in both 1961-62 and 1962-63.)

Maurice King
Drafted: Celtics 6th round, 1957
1959-60 Boston 1, 10.0
1960-61
1961-62 Kansas City (ABL) 78, 7.8
1962-63 Kansas City (ABL) 31, 14.7; then Chicago 37, 5.8

Fred LaCour
Drafted: Hawks 3rd round, 1960
1960-61 St. Louis 55, 5.6
1961-62 St. Louis 73, 7.8
1962-63 Oakland (ABL) 25, 19.7; then San Francisco 16, 4.1

Hal Lear
Warriors 1st round, 1956
1956-57 Philadelphia 3, 10.3
1957-58
1958-59
1959-60
1960-61
1961-62 L.A.–Cle.–Pit. (ABL) 60, 13.1

Jerry Lucas
Drafted: Royals 1st round, 1962
1962-63 signed with Cleveland (ABL), then sat out season after team ceased operations
1963-64 Cincinnati 79, 17.7
1964-65 Cincinnati 66, 21.4
1965-66 Cincinnati 79, 21.5
1966-67 Cincinnati 81, 17.8
1967-68 Cincinnati 82, 21.5
1968-69 Cincinnati 74, 18.3
1969-70 Cincinnati-San Francisco 67, 15.1
1970-71 San Francisco 80, 19.2
1971-72 New York 77, 16.7
1972-73 New York 71, 9.9
1973-74 New York 73, 6.2

Nick Mantis
Drafted: Hawks 5th round, 1959
1959-60 Minneapolis 10, 2.1
1960-61
1961-62 Kansas City (ABL) 77, 14.6
1962-63 St. Louis-Chicago 52, 4.5

John McCarthy
Drafted: Royals, 1956
1956-57 Rochester 72, 6.6
1957-58
1958-59 Cincinnati 78, 12.9
1959-60 St. Louis 75, 8.4
1960-61 St. Louis 79, 8.3
1961-62 St. Louis 15, 3.2
1962-63 Pittsburgh (ABL) 18, 5.2
1963-64 Boston 28, 1.3

Jim Palmer
Drafted: Hawks 2nd round, 1957
1958-59 Cincinnati 67, 10.3
1959-60 Cincinnati-New York 74, 8.3
1960-61 New York 55, 5.3
1961-62 Pit–L.A.–S.F. (ABL) 72, 8.4

George Patterson
Drafted: Royals 12th round, 1961
1961-62 Pit–K.C. (ABL) 75, 7.4
1962-63 Chicago (ABL) 18, 2.6
1963-64
1964-65
1965-66
1966-67
1967-68 Detroit 59, 2.0

Phil Rollins
Drafted: Warriors, 1956
1958-59 Philadelphia-Cincinnati 44, 5.2
1959-60 Cincinnati 72, 5.5
1960-61 Cincinnati-St. Louis-New York 61, 4.5
1961-62 Pittsburgh (ABL) 60, 13.8
1962-63 Pittsburgh (ABL) 17, 13.0

Ken Sears
Drafted: Knicks 1st round, 1955
1955-56 New York 70, 12.8
1956-57 New York 72, 14.8
1957-58 New York 72, 18.6
1958-59 New York 71, 21.0
1959-60 New York 64, 18.5
1960-61 New York 52, 14.4
1961-62 San Francisco (ABL) 75, 17.7
1962-63 New York-San Francisco 77, 5.9
1963-64 San Francisco 51, 3.3

Bill Sharman
Drafted: Capitols, 1950
1950-51 Washington 31, 12.2
1951-52 Boston 63, 10.7
1952-53 Boston 71, 16.2
1953-54 Boston 72, 16.0
1954-55 Boston 68, 18.4
1955-56 Boston 72, 19.9
1956-57 Boston 67, 21.1
1957-58 Boston 63, 22.3
1958-59 Boston 72, 20.4
1959-60 Boston 71, 19.3
1960-61 Boston 61, 16.0
1961-62 Los Angeles (ABL) 19, 5.6
(Note: Sharman was player/head coach of the Los Angeles Jets during the first half of the 1961-62 season, after which the team folded.)

Larry Siegfried
Drafted: Royals 1st round, 1961
1961-62 Cleveland (ABL) 71, 9.0
1962-63
1963-64 Boston 31, 3.3
1964-65 Boston 72, 6.3
1965-66 Boston 71, 13.7
1966-67 Boston 73, 14.1
1967-68 Boston 62, 12.2
1968-69 Boston 79, 14.2
1969-70 Boston 78, 12.6
1970-71 San Diego 53, 8.0
1971-72 Atlanta-Houston 31, 3.8

Bob Smith
Drafted: Lakers 3rd round, 1959
1959-60 Minneapolis 10, 3.7
1960-61
1961-62 Pittsburgh (ABL) 3, 4.3; and Los Angeles 3, 0.0

Ron Sobie
Drafted: Pistons, 1956
1956-57 New York 71, 6.8
1957-58 New York 55, 11.5
1958-59 New York 50, 6.6
1959-60 New York-Minneapolis 16, 6.6
1960-61
1961-62 Chicago (ABL) 8, 13.5
1962-63 Chicago (ABL) 28, 12.6
(Note: Sobie – also known as Ron Sobieszczyk – was player/head coach of the Chicago Majors during the truncated 1962-63 season.)

Larry Staverman
Drafted: Royals 9th round, 1958
1958-59 Cincinnati 57, 4.3
1959-60 Cincinnati 49, 3.8
1960-61 Cincinnati 66, 4.6
1961-62 Kansas City (ABL) 79, 17.5
1962-63 Kansas City (ABL) 31, 20.9; then Chicago 33, 7.2
1963-64 Baltimore-Detroit-Cincinnati 60, 4.4

Dan Swartz
Drafted: Celtics, 1956
1961-62 L.A.–W/N.Y. (ABL) 70, 24.8
1962-63 Boston 39, 4.5

Gene Tormohlen
Drafted: Nationals 2nd round, 1959
1961-62 Kansas City (ABL) 76, 12.4
1962-63 Kansas City (ABL) 30, 14.4; then St. Louis 7, 1.7
1963-64 St. Louis 51, 4.1
1964-65
1965-66 St. Louis 71, 4.8
1966-67 St. Louis 63, 6.3
1967-68 St. Louis 77, 3.0
1968-69
1969-70 Atlanta 2, 2.0

Jack Turner
Drafted: Packers 2nd round, 1961
1961-62 Chicago 42, 4.8
1962-63 Oakland (ABL) 25, 14.9

Charlie Tyra
Drafted: Pistons 1st round, 1957
1957-58 New York 68, 7.4
1958-59 New York 69, 8.8
1959-60 New York 74, 12.8
1960-61 New York 59, 8.8
1961-62 Chicago 78, 6.7
1962-63 Pittsburgh (ABL) 23, 9.2

Ben Warley
Drafted: Nationals 1st round, 1961
1961-62 Cleveland (ABL) 72, 12.5
1962-63 Long Beach (ABL) 24, 14.7; then Syracuse 26, 4.8
1963-64 Philadelphia 79, 8.2
1964-65 Philadelphia 65, 4.8
1965-66 Philadelphia-Baltimore 57, 5.2
1966-67 Baltimore 67, 6.2
1967-68 Anaheim (ABA) 71, 17.4
1968-69 Los Angeles (ABA) 35, 14.0
1969-70 Denver (ABA) 42, 4.6

Ralph Wells
1962-63 Philadelphia (ABL) 2, 2.0; and Chicago 3, 0.7

Bob Wiesenhahn
Drafted: Royals 2nd round, 1961
1961-62 Cincinnati 60, 2.0
1962-63 Pittsburgh (ABL) 15, 6.7

Win Wilfong
Drafted: Hawks 1st round, 1957
1957-58 St. Louis 71, 7.8
1958-59 St. Louis 63, 4.1
1959-60 Cincinnati 72, 10.1
1960-61 Cincinnati 62, 4.6
1961-62 Kansas City (ABL) 69, 7.5
1962-63 Kansas City (ABL) 28, 7.3

John Windsor
Drafted: Nationals 5th round, 1962
1962-63 Kansas City (ABL) 28, 8.8
1963-64 San Francisco 11, 2.5

George Yardley
Drafted: Pistons 1st round, 1950
1953-54 Ft. Wayne 63, 9.0
1954-55 Ft. Wayne 60, 17.3
1955-56 Ft. Wayne 71, 17.4
1956-57 Ft. Wayne 72, 21.5
1957-58 Detroit 72, 27.8
1958-59 Detroit-Syracuse 61, 19.8
1959-60 Syracuse 73, 20.2
1960-61
1961-62 Los Angeles (ABL) 25, 19.2

Wayne Yates
Drafted: Lakers 1st round, 1961
1961-62 Los Angeles 37, 1.9
1962-63 Oakland (ABL) 25, 10.7

An additional seven players played in the ABL and ABA, but not the NBA:

Bill Garner
Drafted: Lakers 8th round, 1962
1962-63 Long Beach (ABL) 24, 4.3
1963-64
1964-65
1965-66
1966-67
1967-68 Anaheim (ABA) 53, 1.5

Jim Hadnot
Drafted: Celtics 3rd round, 1962
1962-63 Oakland (ABL) 25, 14.4
1963-64
1964-65
1965-66
1966-67
1967-68 Oakland (ABA) 77, 17.5

Tony Jackson
Drafted: Knicks 3rd round, 1961
1961-62 W/N.Y.–Chi (ABL) 72, 17.5
1962-63 Chicago (ABL) 27, 17.1
1963-64
1964-65
1965-66
1966-67
1967-68 New Jersey (ABA) 74, 19.4
1968-69 New York-Minnesota-Houston (ABA) 64, 11.7
(Note: Like Connie Hawkins, Johnson was blacklisted by the NBA in the fallout from the early ‘60s college point-shaving scandal.)

Bruce Spraggins
Drafted: Warriors 5th round, 1961
1961-62 Wash./N.Y. (ABL) 78, 8.5
1962-63 Philadelphia (ABL) 27, 13.1
1963-64
1964-65
1965-66
1966-67
1967-68 New Jersey (ABA) 70, 12.2

Herschell Turner
Drafted: Nationals 6th round, 1960
1961-62 Chicago (ABL) 72, 16.5
1962-63 Chicago (ABL) 27, 9.0
1963-64
1964-65
1965-66
1966-67
1967-68 Pittsburgh-Anaheim (ABA) 41, 3.2

Hank Whitney
Drafted: Nationals 4th round, 1961
1961-62 L.A.–Chi (ABL) 74, 9.1
1962-63
1963-64
1964-65
1965-66
1966-67
1967-68 New Jersey (ABA) 37, 16.0
1968-69 New York-Houston (ABA) 49, 7.2
1969-70 Carolina (ABA) 59, 6.7

Leroy Wright
Drafted: Celtics 2nd round, 1960
1961-62 Wash./N.Y. (ABL) 77. 4.8
1962-63 Philadelphia (ABL) 28, 6.9
1963-64
1964-65
1965-66
1966-67
1967-68 Pittsburgh (ABA) 17, 3.4
1968-69 Minnesota (ABA) 10, 0.8
Last edited by MCT on Sat Nov 22, 2008 2:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Mike Goodman » Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:17 pm

MCT wrote:ABL stats are available on the APBR web site, at http://www.apbr.org/ablstats.html.

That link doesn't work. How about -
http://www.apbr.org/ablstats.html

- no period at the end.
The numbers after the team names are GP and MPG.

Those look more like Points per game. In any case, I have the numbers I need. Hope you didn't go to a lot of trouble compiling that list. The names are good to have.

I only work off of 'consecutive seasons'. It isn't important how a guy played 5 years before or after changing leagues, in comparing league strength for a given season. Seems like a reasonable project.
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36% of all statistics are wrong
Mike Goodman
 
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Postby MCT » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:13 pm

Mike Goodman wrote:
MCT wrote:ABL stats are available on the APBR web site, at http://www.apbr.org/ablstats.html.

That link doesn't work. How about -
http://www.apbr.org/ablstats.html

- no period at the end.
The numbers after the team names are GP and MPG.

Those look more like Points per game. In any case, I have the numbers I need.

You're right, they are PPG. I've fixed the above problems in the original post.

Mike Goodman wrote:Hope you didn't go to a lot of trouble compiling that list. The names are good to have...I only work off of 'consecutive seasons'. It isn't important how a guy played 5 years before or after changing leagues, in comparing league strength for a given season. Seems like a reasonable project.

I had started to work on this list, but hadn't completed it. The discussion here prompted me to pull it out and finish it.

Because the ABL isn't generally recognized as a "major league", I know of no comprehensive reference source that presents players' NBA, ABA and ABL stats all in one place. The idea behind this list was to not only list all the relevant players, but give an idea as to how their ABL careers fit into/around their NBA/ABA careers, and a rough idea of how much playing time they got in each league.

For the current discussion, I also thought it might be useful in identifying which players would be suitable for your analysis, without having to look up every single player who saw action in the ABL to see if they also played in the NBA, and if so, when. (It also tells whether ABL players played one or both season, and which teams they played for, without having to search randomly through the ABL stats for this information.)
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