It would be rather a shame if white Americans stopped providing the NBA with any good players. This is, after all, the majority of American males.
Imagine wiping out all the best white players of 1985, or 1975, from those years. Would the league have been just as good?
Of course not.
Kevin Love and David Lee are something of a resurgence, compared to the preceding 10-15 years.
Some years ago, a (black) friend of mine pointed out there were no good white point guards in the league. Then Stockton and Price came along. It's never over 'til it's over.
So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
it should bother you. white american bball players are the canary in the coalmine w/ regards to the quality of basketball played in the U.S.kjb wrote:Okay, really -- last try.
I don't care what color skin a player has. If there's never another white American NBA player -- I really don't care. It doesn't matter to me.
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
Dude, what the heck do you mean by that? 
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
Non-American performance in the NBA:
of all ethnicities / “races”
rest of world with about 95% of the world’s population / potential talent pool
country of origin to the best of my knowledge
All totals are # of non-Americans on the stated leaderboard (ties for stated # of top slots included)
2011 (in top 10)
Field goals 0
3 pt FGs 1
3 pt FG% 0
FTM 0
FT% 1
Rebounds 1
Assists 2
Blocks 5
Points 0
TS% 2
WinShares 1
Yearly Leader (all-time for time tracked, up to 65 years)
Field goals 1
3 pt FGs 1
3 pt FG% 0
FTM 1
FT% 1
Rebounds 7
Assists 1
Block rate 10
Points 1
TS% 5
WinShares 4
Career Leaders (in top 50)
Field goals 2
3 pt FGs 3
3 pt FG% 3
FTM 4
FT% 3
Rebounds 3
Assists 1
Blocks 7
Points 3
TS% 5
WinShares 5
MVP winners
6 in 55 years
# in top 100 on cumulative MVP shares
5
Defensive player of the year
6 in 28 years
# with 3+ Championships
about 6% of the total
Altogether non-Americans / original citizens of the rest of the world of any ethnicity or race have 10+% representation on the leaderboards as stated above in about 20% of the approximately 45 categories listed. In most of the rest of the categories it less than 5% or much smaller. Or in other words, American players have 90-100% of the representation in about 80% of the categories and a large majority in all but a few cases.
But if you eliminate players from The U.S. Virgin Islands and Canada (and by that I mean just Duncan and Nash and no neighbors now or anytime in the past), these overall numbers would get cut a good deal. (I shouldn't have included Duncan in the rest of the world initially since he is an American citizen but I did since he was raised outside the mainland.) Also cut international players who received college basketball in the US and many of the remaining numbers would fall to near zero. Also eliminate other black African players and many of the rest would fail to near zero too. There would still be some appearances by whites from anywhere in the world but the US who didn't go to a US college but a modest amount. The small number of appearances on the leaderboards listed above would fall mostly on Dirk with a few from Peja, Ginobili, Kirilenko and 1 each from Divac and Calderon and maybe a stray that I forgot. Just a few top white guys from outside the US.
American blacks dominate most categories strongly or very strongly. White American, black Africans and white non-Americans each pull a chunk of the rest. I didn't track exactly who came in second, third and fourth but it probably is fairly close among them. The main points to me would still be that they all are far behind American blacks and that they all contribute, though with some differences as to where most prominently. The group share numbers might shift further in the future as the game becomes more popular and more top athletes find the game or the game finds them. As long they bring talent, teamwork and good effort, I'm fine with that.
Non-American performance would however look stronger if you just looked at leadership rankings per capita for the number of players in the NBA that are in that subgroup. The same could probably be said for white American performance per capita in the league in recent times compared to American blacks.
In this deep, probably should push on and check the same detail for white Americans:
All totals are # of white-Americans on the stated leaderboards:
2011 (in top 10)
Field goals 0
3 pt FGs 0
3 pt FG% 2
FTM 0
FT% 0
Rebounds 2
Assists 1
Blocks 0
Points 0
TS% 0
WinShares 1
And drawing heavily in many cases from the very early days...
Yearly Leader (all-time for time tracked, up to 65 years)
Field goals ~10
3 pt FGs ~10-15
3 pt FG% ~15
FTM ~15-20
FT% ~40
Rebounds ~8
Assists ~25
Block rate ~5
Points ~12
TS% ~16
WinShares ~15
Career Leaders (in top 50)
Field goals ~7
3 pt FGs ~4
3 pt FG% ~12
FTM ~8
FT% ~12
Rebounds ~8
Assists ~6
Blocks ~4
Points ~6
TS% ~10
WinShares ~8
MVP winners
~7 in 55 years
# in top 100 on cumulative MVP shares
~7
Defensive player of the year
2 in 28 years
# with 3+ Championships
about 40% of the total
Yes the white American representation is down in 2011 compared to the full sweep of history but as I stated earlier the league changed dramatically in the late 70s and I suspect these leaderboards made a big change then too and less so since. Tracking year by year or decade by decade change rates for these is more than I intend to do, especially not knowing the level of interest out there in the detail.
White Americans have made their mark at the top of these various categories, more so in the past before integration of other talent pools. Not as much as black Americans but a decent amount over the long-term.
In terms of totals the rest of the world of all ethnicities and races has a slight lead in leaderboard appearances for the 2010-11 season (4 to 2 with 4 ties). But comparison per capita between white and black Americans and white and nonwhite non-Americans today would be different. Moving quickly thru the list and based on what I know already I think it is about 20 white Americans, 40 white non-Americans and about 30 black non-Americans and probably around 325- 350 black Americans. So on a per capita player in the league basis white Americans would take a lead in leaderboard appearances vs the entire non-American world and pull even with the white non-American players. And white Americans would also actually take a strong lead on a per capita player in the league basis in 4 of the 11 categories I listed for the most recent season compared to black American players. There is some top white-American talent today within a small group of players.
Short tournament international basketball competitions for senior men are not a perfect guide but the American record is still pretty close to perfect all-time in the Olympics, and generally still pretty good at the less emphasized “worlds” & to my knowledge better than any other country.
Regarding the quality of Eurobasket teams vs NBA teams there isn't much evidence. The few dozen exhibitions (or however many that have been staged) don't mean much to me but I'd guess the NBA has probably won at least 70-85% of them.
Hollinger and others have shown that international players on average lose a notable chunk off most of their international stats when they come to the NBA with the exception of a few stat categories where the loss may be small to none. I am not sure if international players increase their stats on anything when playing in the NBA. Maybe assists but that would probably mainly because of scorekeeping differences and not superior skill.
A range of people knock groups of today's white and / or black American players (instead of just individual players) based on their basketball observation & analysis and maybe in some cases other reasons of their own, and to different degrees. These people might be non-Americans (white, black or other), Americans who do not identify themselves as white or black Americans, or they could also be Americans that are white or black. People's own racial and ethnic background & views can affect how they look at basketball and group performance. I am aware of race & ethnicity in basketball but not that concerned about it and I don't think greatly swayed by those considerations in my evaluation of players. I am generally not interested in arguing opinions related to it or trying to dissuade focus on it by others. The above comments are intended to give some additional context about the actual performance levels of these various subgroups in the past and now and to perhaps help identify how much claims about superior or inferior performance by one or more sub-group match up to these facts. For those interested in the topic and hopefully the facts.
of all ethnicities / “races”
rest of world with about 95% of the world’s population / potential talent pool
country of origin to the best of my knowledge
All totals are # of non-Americans on the stated leaderboard (ties for stated # of top slots included)
2011 (in top 10)
Field goals 0
3 pt FGs 1
3 pt FG% 0
FTM 0
FT% 1
Rebounds 1
Assists 2
Blocks 5
Points 0
TS% 2
WinShares 1
Yearly Leader (all-time for time tracked, up to 65 years)
Field goals 1
3 pt FGs 1
3 pt FG% 0
FTM 1
FT% 1
Rebounds 7
Assists 1
Block rate 10
Points 1
TS% 5
WinShares 4
Career Leaders (in top 50)
Field goals 2
3 pt FGs 3
3 pt FG% 3
FTM 4
FT% 3
Rebounds 3
Assists 1
Blocks 7
Points 3
TS% 5
WinShares 5
MVP winners
6 in 55 years
# in top 100 on cumulative MVP shares
5
Defensive player of the year
6 in 28 years
# with 3+ Championships
about 6% of the total
Altogether non-Americans / original citizens of the rest of the world of any ethnicity or race have 10+% representation on the leaderboards as stated above in about 20% of the approximately 45 categories listed. In most of the rest of the categories it less than 5% or much smaller. Or in other words, American players have 90-100% of the representation in about 80% of the categories and a large majority in all but a few cases.
But if you eliminate players from The U.S. Virgin Islands and Canada (and by that I mean just Duncan and Nash and no neighbors now or anytime in the past), these overall numbers would get cut a good deal. (I shouldn't have included Duncan in the rest of the world initially since he is an American citizen but I did since he was raised outside the mainland.) Also cut international players who received college basketball in the US and many of the remaining numbers would fall to near zero. Also eliminate other black African players and many of the rest would fail to near zero too. There would still be some appearances by whites from anywhere in the world but the US who didn't go to a US college but a modest amount. The small number of appearances on the leaderboards listed above would fall mostly on Dirk with a few from Peja, Ginobili, Kirilenko and 1 each from Divac and Calderon and maybe a stray that I forgot. Just a few top white guys from outside the US.
American blacks dominate most categories strongly or very strongly. White American, black Africans and white non-Americans each pull a chunk of the rest. I didn't track exactly who came in second, third and fourth but it probably is fairly close among them. The main points to me would still be that they all are far behind American blacks and that they all contribute, though with some differences as to where most prominently. The group share numbers might shift further in the future as the game becomes more popular and more top athletes find the game or the game finds them. As long they bring talent, teamwork and good effort, I'm fine with that.
Non-American performance would however look stronger if you just looked at leadership rankings per capita for the number of players in the NBA that are in that subgroup. The same could probably be said for white American performance per capita in the league in recent times compared to American blacks.
In this deep, probably should push on and check the same detail for white Americans:
All totals are # of white-Americans on the stated leaderboards:
2011 (in top 10)
Field goals 0
3 pt FGs 0
3 pt FG% 2
FTM 0
FT% 0
Rebounds 2
Assists 1
Blocks 0
Points 0
TS% 0
WinShares 1
And drawing heavily in many cases from the very early days...
Yearly Leader (all-time for time tracked, up to 65 years)
Field goals ~10
3 pt FGs ~10-15
3 pt FG% ~15
FTM ~15-20
FT% ~40
Rebounds ~8
Assists ~25
Block rate ~5
Points ~12
TS% ~16
WinShares ~15
Career Leaders (in top 50)
Field goals ~7
3 pt FGs ~4
3 pt FG% ~12
FTM ~8
FT% ~12
Rebounds ~8
Assists ~6
Blocks ~4
Points ~6
TS% ~10
WinShares ~8
MVP winners
~7 in 55 years
# in top 100 on cumulative MVP shares
~7
Defensive player of the year
2 in 28 years
# with 3+ Championships
about 40% of the total
Yes the white American representation is down in 2011 compared to the full sweep of history but as I stated earlier the league changed dramatically in the late 70s and I suspect these leaderboards made a big change then too and less so since. Tracking year by year or decade by decade change rates for these is more than I intend to do, especially not knowing the level of interest out there in the detail.
White Americans have made their mark at the top of these various categories, more so in the past before integration of other talent pools. Not as much as black Americans but a decent amount over the long-term.
In terms of totals the rest of the world of all ethnicities and races has a slight lead in leaderboard appearances for the 2010-11 season (4 to 2 with 4 ties). But comparison per capita between white and black Americans and white and nonwhite non-Americans today would be different. Moving quickly thru the list and based on what I know already I think it is about 20 white Americans, 40 white non-Americans and about 30 black non-Americans and probably around 325- 350 black Americans. So on a per capita player in the league basis white Americans would take a lead in leaderboard appearances vs the entire non-American world and pull even with the white non-American players. And white Americans would also actually take a strong lead on a per capita player in the league basis in 4 of the 11 categories I listed for the most recent season compared to black American players. There is some top white-American talent today within a small group of players.
Short tournament international basketball competitions for senior men are not a perfect guide but the American record is still pretty close to perfect all-time in the Olympics, and generally still pretty good at the less emphasized “worlds” & to my knowledge better than any other country.
Regarding the quality of Eurobasket teams vs NBA teams there isn't much evidence. The few dozen exhibitions (or however many that have been staged) don't mean much to me but I'd guess the NBA has probably won at least 70-85% of them.
Hollinger and others have shown that international players on average lose a notable chunk off most of their international stats when they come to the NBA with the exception of a few stat categories where the loss may be small to none. I am not sure if international players increase their stats on anything when playing in the NBA. Maybe assists but that would probably mainly because of scorekeeping differences and not superior skill.
A range of people knock groups of today's white and / or black American players (instead of just individual players) based on their basketball observation & analysis and maybe in some cases other reasons of their own, and to different degrees. These people might be non-Americans (white, black or other), Americans who do not identify themselves as white or black Americans, or they could also be Americans that are white or black. People's own racial and ethnic background & views can affect how they look at basketball and group performance. I am aware of race & ethnicity in basketball but not that concerned about it and I don't think greatly swayed by those considerations in my evaluation of players. I am generally not interested in arguing opinions related to it or trying to dissuade focus on it by others. The above comments are intended to give some additional context about the actual performance levels of these various subgroups in the past and now and to perhaps help identify how much claims about superior or inferior performance by one or more sub-group match up to these facts. For those interested in the topic and hopefully the facts.
Last edited by Crow on Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
Again, WHY should it bother me? In what way are "white American bball players" a canary in the coalmine with regards to the quality of play?noypi wrote:it should bother you. white american bball players are the canary in the coalmine w/ regards to the quality of basketball played in the U.S.kjb wrote:Okay, really -- last try.
I don't care what color skin a player has. If there's never another white American NBA player -- I really don't care. It doesn't matter to me.
This is feeling like an Al Campanis conversation.
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
It bothers me, because it's virtually impossible to find an outdoor pickup game outside a neighborhood with a high % black population. Most outdoor courts now have grass and weeds growing up through the pavement, or they've been torn out entirely.
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
What's the problem going to a neighborhood with a high percentage of black population? I did that for 15 years to find good pickup games, both indoor and outdoor.Mike G wrote:It bothers me, because it's virtually impossible to find an outdoor pickup game outside a neighborhood with a high % black population. Most outdoor courts now have grass and weeds growing up through the pavement, or they've been torn out entirely.
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
Well, I guess I just got spoiled, in Indiana, where one could regularly find a game in many neighborhoods, without having to go far.
There were courts where one could turn on lights and play at night. After an hour, a timer turned them off. This was indispensable in summer when it's too hot to play in daylight.
I could consider myself lucky that the temptation isn't there. I'm more likely to hurt myself than to have a bustout game.
We didn't shoot FT, so a basket was just a point. Then the 3-point arc came along, and some guys insisted that was worth 2. As in, twice as much. Then it became a game of stop and shoot the 3. Quickly downhill from there.
Toward the end of the pickup ball era, we'd cobble together games with women/girls, Asians, Hispanics, whomever. Some of these were pretty much fun.
There were courts where one could turn on lights and play at night. After an hour, a timer turned them off. This was indispensable in summer when it's too hot to play in daylight.
I could consider myself lucky that the temptation isn't there. I'm more likely to hurt myself than to have a bustout game.
We didn't shoot FT, so a basket was just a point. Then the 3-point arc came along, and some guys insisted that was worth 2. As in, twice as much. Then it became a game of stop and shoot the 3. Quickly downhill from there.
Toward the end of the pickup ball era, we'd cobble together games with women/girls, Asians, Hispanics, whomever. Some of these were pretty much fun.
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
Aren't there still plenty of white players in college and high school (and playgrounds)? There's literally 60 guys who have a chance to make it to the NBA every year. Out of how many guys playing basketball in America? Millions?
I'm with kjb on this one. Just don't see an issue here.
I'm with kjb on this one. Just don't see an issue here.
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
why? we're just talking re white american players. the issue isn't about genetics since there are obviously good white NON-american players.kjb wrote:Again, WHY should it bother me? In what way are "white American bball players" a canary in the coalmine with regards to the quality of play?noypi wrote:it should bother you. white american bball players are the canary in the coalmine w/ regards to the quality of basketball played in the U.S.kjb wrote:Okay, really -- last try.
I don't care what color skin a player has. If there's never another white American NBA player -- I really don't care. It doesn't matter to me.
This is feeling like an Al Campanis conversation.
It has a lot more to do with the cultural.
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
It's feeling like an Al Campanis conversation because of your unsupported stereotypical racial generalizations. Examples:noypi wrote: why? we're just talking re white american players. the issue isn't about genetics since there are obviously good white NON-american players.
It has a lot more to do with the cultural.
noypi wrote:during the last 2 decades of NBA ball, the emphasis is more on athletic plays over fundamentals and intelligent basketball. And that has wiped out a whole generation of white American players in the USA because they're just as lacking fundamentally as black American players. At least black players still have the athleticism part. They (white american ballers) don't have the confidence or fearlessness of some European players. It's like it's been beaten out of them for the last 20 years.
noypi wrote:American basketball culture need to go back to basics--fundamentals over flash and dunks. Black American basketball players need to stay in college for at least 3 years. White American players need to be more fundamentally sound since they can't jump. They need to be more assertive on the court and not be intimidated. I hope in the new collective bargaining agreement it raises the age limit to 20 or 21.
noypi wrote:how will white american guards get the respect if they only end up as spot up shooters in the nba?
According to you, white players possess "fundamentals" while blacks possess "athleticism." The decline in American quality play, according to you, is related to an emphasis on athleticism, which precludes white players from participating in the NBA. Unless, of course they work hard on whatever "fundamentals" you think they're lacking so that they can overcome their inability to jump. (I'm guessing about your meaning here because you still haven't actually presented anything to support your racial stereotyping.)noypi wrote:it should bother you. white american bball players are the canary in the coalmine w/ regards to the quality of basketball played in the U.S.
But, you haven't provided evidence to support the underlying premise -- that there's been an actual decline in fundamentals. Once you actually establish that with some evidence, you would then have the task of demonstrating that the decline is connected to there being fewer white players in the NBA. Good luck with that.
Your repetition of old racial stereotypes (blacks have athleticism; whites have skills) sound to my ear like Al Campanis did when he said blacks lack the necessities to be good baseball managers. Especially when you still can't provide a coherent answer about why any of us should care how many white American players are in the NBA. How about this: Why do YOU care how many white players are in the NBA?
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
why do some people have to turn a good intellectual discussion into something ugly and racist?
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
Is there really a Bill Walton coming out of ANY pool, honestly? 7 foot elite rebounder, shot blocker (in his prime), passer, finisher & mid range, etcnoypi wrote:will we see another bill walton coming out of the white american pool?
FWIW - this kid is considered now by many the top player in the 2012 high school class - and is being touted a sure fire future NBA stud:
As for no great white US guards - lets see how Jimmer does. He's hardly one dimensional offensively - he likes to use his body to go to the hole with an array of interesting layup/floaters off contact. Maybe he'll be the best white US guard since the Stockton/Hornacek/Majerles. Hinrich looked promising for a short period of time. Luke Ridnour. Nash is NORTH American - that kinda counts. There are a good number of NBA players in which one parent is white.
And my opinion - I live in Texas - it ALL seems to be about football ("athletes" play qb - bigger kids lb/te/OL) & baseball in the white community. Up north - hockey is big (I lived in Alaska too). White families all seem to get their kids into soccer. Lacrosse is popular in the east. Golf. Even tennis. Martial Arts classes, swim classes, soccer, baseball - basketball is a seasonal thing for my two young boys. It's been that way in the white community in the US for years now. It seems white kid from the US needs to be at least 6'8" &/or just plain LOVE the game beyond ANYTHING else to put the type of dedication in to eventually get to the NBA. Overseas - they get the kid into the sport early and FOCUS on that sport. Much of the black community in the US still seems to do this - basketball &/or football.
None of this is new - when I played pick up every day for years (mid 80's through the 90s) - 95% of the time I was the only white guy on the court. I think we see even less white US guys in the NBA now because the competition is greater with the influx of world wide dedicated talent, as well as the US black community still being well represented - as it probably always will be.
Finally, lack of white US players in the NBA bothers me none whatsoever.
Also - Kevin Love is much more than a glorified "role" player as mentioned a couple times. Despite his young age, he's an elite level rebounder, the best outlet passer we've seen in years (being wasted on a BAD team), can shoot with range, and is tenacious with multiple put backs if need be (a little Moses Malonish). Barring injuries he'll be a future Hall of Famer. Here's the list of pretty much sure fire future elite players in the NBA under 25 years old (barring catastrophe): Durant, Rose, Griffin, Love, Westbrook, Wall. Wall might be a stretch - but scouts love him - and my projections based on his statistical skillsets & age (I'll present my projection stuff soon to the board) love him despite his kinda meh rookie season. So, anyway, Love is good - very good.
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
Soccer was once the 'alternative' to the traditional competitive sports. Like basketball, you could practice your skills alone, with small numbers, in small areas, etc. And a generation (or more) into investing America's youth in this alternate sport, I've yet to see a good game (or is it 'match'?) between American players.Statman wrote:White families all seem to get their kids into soccer. ... - basketball is a seasonal thing for my two young boys. It's been that way in the white community in the US for years now. ....
But part of basketball's perfectness was (and always should be) that a court is often nearby; and the sound of one ball bouncing lets everyone nearby know that a game could be had. Another player comes. Then 2 guys passing by think, "We can take them". Then 4 guys come by ... Then you've got teams calling "next".
I have overheard white ugys say they may as well not try to get in this game, because the blacks have taken over. Different style, different mood. It can be a social experiment at times. If you're a social experimenter by nature, it doesn't deter you.
Re: So few good white AMERICAN players in the NBA lately?
I'll always remember walking on a court in downtown Minneapolis - I was 16 (in 1987) and we were there for my father's funeral. I was at a park with much of my extended family - and as always if I saw a court with a ball I had to see if I could get in. Shooting around with about 14 dudes - perfect timing to be picked up for the first full court run. I ran two - and had to leave. It was then that more than a few family members had to voice their amazement that I walked on and got into full court games in which I was the only white guy. I was also probably the youngest guy there. They all seemed to think that it showed some huevos - heck, I didn't even think twice about it until they mentioned it - since I had been walking onto courts for a few years getting into games without any concern over the racial or age makeup. I didn't really have a choice - the courts in my early pick up days were usually almost all black guys who were older than me. I got used to it quick because I HAD to play, I loved the game.Mike G wrote:But part of basketball's perfectness was (and always should be) that a court is often nearby; and the sound of one ball bouncing lets everyone nearby know that a game could be had. Another player comes. Then 2 guys passing by think, "We can take them". Then 4 guys come by ... Then you've got teams calling "next".
I have overheard white ugys say they may as well not try to get in this game, because the blacks have taken over. Different style, different mood. It can be a social experiment at times. If you're a social experimenter by nature, it doesn't deter you.
Out of hundreds of pick up games I was in through the years (heck - maybe over 1000) - I NEVER had a problem no matter the racial makeup of the game. I saw MANY fights through the years mind you - never once did it ever have any racial tone to it. The closest I ever got to fighting on the court was in college against a frat guy my own race who I owned at the rec center (University of Arizona). I went Larry Bird with the smack on him (I usually was cool - but he said something that got me going), he couldn't handle it, he threw the ball at me after we whipped them and left. We all laughed - and took on the next team.
My white friends never seemed to play pick up basketball much through high school - they all played other sports more (mainly football and baseball). I don't remember it ever being talked about - but maybe they were intimidated somewhat by a sport more embraced by a different culture or race? I dunno.
I drive by a big pickup soccer game every day after my older kid's swim lesson. It seems that every guy in the game is hispanic. My son asked if he could play - I told him when he's older he can (he's 6). Will he be able (feel confident enough) to step on a soccer field and embrace a sport he loves (IF he ends up loving soccer - I'm hoping basketball and baseball personally) if he's not of the same race &/or culture of all the other guys there (heck - there probably could be some language barrier too)? I hope so - from my experience, it ALWAYS worked for me and I learned alot about cultural diversity - and I learned to love the sport more.