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Statman wrote:

noypi wrote:
Also - Kevin Love is much more than a glorified "role" player as mentioned a couple times. Despite his young age, he's an elite level rebounder, the best outlet passer we've seen in years (being wasted on a BAD team), can shoot with range, and is tenacious with multiple put backs if need be (a little Moses Malonish).

he gets his shot blocked a lot inside. he has difficulty shooting over taller players. he's not a go to guy when the game is on the line. he's a glorified spot up shooter on offense. I laughed when Love tweeted that with rubio now in minnesota, he'll be able to pick and roll with him. maybe pick and pop. and he's not a good interior defender. can't intimidate.

he may be a good rebounder (moses-like), but he's not good at finishing plays inside.

anyway, i see him as a marion type super roleplayer.

I feel like this issue is of vital importance.

Statman wrote:

noypi wrote:will we see another bill walton coming out of the white american pool?

Is there really a Bill Walton coming out of ANY pool, honestly? 7 foot elite rebounder, shot blocker (in his prime), passer, finisher & mid range, etc

Sabonis when he was younger. Marc Gasol may be the closest for today's generation (if his teammates will let him shoot more).

FWIW - this kid is considered now by many the top player in the 2012 high school class - and is being touted a sure fire future NBA stud:

He looks promising. a white american guy who attacks the basket. at least he's no matt bonner or kevin love.

it's says here that he hasn't decided yet on which college to play for
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball ... Gary-86150

If he wants to improve his game and not be used as a role playing type this early in his player years, then he needs to go to a college where he can be the man. I say avoid Arizona, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina. He should seriously consider Utah, Butler, Gonzaga or Indiana and stay there for 3 years.

noypi wrote:

Statman wrote:

noypi wrote:will we see another bill walton coming out of the white american pool?

Is there really a Bill Walton coming out of ANY pool, honestly? 7 foot elite rebounder, shot blocker (in his prime), passer, finisher & mid range, etc

noypi wrote:Sabonis when he was younger. Marc Gasol may be the closest for today's generation (if his teammates will let him shoot more).

Uh, Sabonis wasn't American - I thought that was your original point. Obviously young Sabonis appeared to be very similar to Walton.

So, let me get this straight - Love constantly gets his shot block, is merely a "good" rebounder, and is a glorified spot up shooter - while Marc Gasol is your closest white US Bill Walton type player?

I guess my perception of player quality and skillsets is a little different than yours. That's ok.

noypi wrote:

If he wants to improve his game and not be used as a role playing type this early in his player years, then he needs to go to a college where he can be the man. I say avoid Arizona, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina. He should seriously consider Utah, Butler, Gonzaga or Indiana and stay there for 3 years.

He'll most likely be "the man" the moment he steps on the court - no matter what college. He's a 1 & done (or 2 & done if the NBA enacts the minimum 2 years college rule). He will go to a college powerhouse.

Statman wrote:

noypi wrote:

If he wants to improve his game and not be used as a role playing type this early in his player years, then he needs to go to a college where he can be the man. I say avoid Arizona, Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina. He should seriously consider Utah, Butler, Gonzaga or Indiana and stay there for 3 years.

He'll most likely be "the man" the moment he steps on the court - no matter what college. He's a 1 & done (or 2 & done if the NBA enacts the minimum 2 years college rule). He will go to a college powerhouse.

i hope he doesn't end up being another spencer hawes.

noypi wrote:he gets his shot blocked a lot inside. he has difficulty shooting over taller players. he's not a go to guy when the game is on the line. he's a glorified spot up shooter on offense. I laughed when Love tweeted that with rubio now in minnesota, he'll be able to pick and roll with him. maybe pick and pop. and he's not a good interior defender. can't intimidate.

he may be a good rebounder (moses-like), but he's not good at finishing plays inside.

anyway, i see him as a marion type super roleplayer.

OK - had to look it up, just to make sure I wasn't crazy:

http://www.82games.com/1011/10MIN14.HTM

He get's his shot blocked a decent amount - but 44% of his shots are from "inside" with an over 60% EFG% (scoring 7.5 ppg from "inside" from the field. He draws fouls at over a 17% clip. That is MUCH more than a "glorified spot up shooter".

While Gasol is more of a low post scorer - he scored just 4 more % of his points inside than Love. He actually scored 2.2 LESS points from inside per game.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10MEM17.HTM

He does get about 1 less shot blocked every 17 attempts than Love - and he does shoot a better % from inside (over 64% to Love's over 60%). Funny though - he draws less fouls per shot attempt than the "glorified spot up shooter" (just under 16% to just over 17% by Love.

You must REALLY think Dirk Nowitzki is very overrated - maybe a super glorified spot up shooter. Only 13% of his shots were from inside (compared to Loves 44%), for just 3 ppg (to Love's 7.5 a game), and drawing just 11% fouls per FGA (to Love's over 17%:

http://www.82games.com/1011/10DAL14.HTM

OK - my sarcasm is over - I just think you've very incorrectly pidgeon holed Kevin Love. I saw most of his games in college - and many in the pros. The numbers seem to back up what I see - a guy that can hit the three, hit the jumper, but ALSO mixes it up inside - scoring points and drawing fouls. Getting his shot blocked just means he gives it another go. "Glorified spot up shooters" don't find a way to grab 12.2% of the offensive rebounds. They are more like Dirk's 2.3% ORB%. And...... Dirk is pretty good - despite being a glorified spot up shooter - nothing wrong with that.

noypi wrote: i hope he doesn't end up being another spencer hawes.

Or Kevin Love?

Statman wrote:Uh, Sabonis wasn't American - I thought that was your original point. Obviously young Sabonis appeared to be very similar to Walton.

So, let me get this straight - Love constantly gets his shot block, is merely a "good" rebounder, and is a glorified spot up shooter - while Marc Gasol is your closest white US Bill Walton type player?

I guess my perception of player quality and skillsets is a little different than yours. That's ok.

let me put it this way: marc can create his own shot from inside and out. love can't guard gasol. gasol's size and defensive presence bothers love. if the game is on the line and both gasol and love are teammates, i'd rather throw the ball to gasol and let him take the winning shot. (In minnesota, beasley would be taking the last shot, not love.)

Statman wrote:

noypi wrote: i hope he doesn't end up being another spencer hawes.

Or Kevin Love?

god, i hope not. from the video you've just posted here, he's capable of more than that.

Statman wrote:

noypi wrote:he gets his shot blocked a lot inside. he has difficulty shooting over taller players. he's not a go to guy when the game is on the line. he's a glorified spot up shooter on offense. I laughed when Love tweeted that with rubio now in minnesota, he'll be able to pick and roll with him. maybe pick and pop. and he's not a good interior defender. can't intimidate.

he may be a good rebounder (moses-like), but he's not good at finishing plays inside.

anyway, i see him as a marion type super roleplayer.

OK - had to look it up, just to make sure I wasn't crazy:

http://www.82games.com/1011/10MIN14.HTM

He get's his shot blocked a decent amount - but 44% of his shots are from "inside" with an over 60% EFG% (scoring 7.5 ppg from "inside" from the field. He draws fouls at over a 17% clip. That is MUCH more than a "glorified spot up shooter".

While Gasol is more of a low post scorer - he scored just 4 more % of his points inside than Love. He actually scored 2.2 LESS points from inside per game.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10MEM17.HTM

He does get about 1 less shot blocked every 17 attempts than Love - and he does shoot a better % from inside (over 64% to Love's over 60%). Funny though - he draws less fouls per shot attempt than the "glorified spot up shooter" (just under 16% to just over 17% by Love.

You must REALLY think Dirk Nowitzki is very overrated - maybe a super glorified spot up shooter. Only 13% of his shots were from inside (compared to Loves 44%), for just 3 ppg (to Love's 7.5 a game), and drawing just 11% fouls per FGA (to Love's over 17%:

http://www.82games.com/1011/10DAL14.HTM

OK - my sarcasm is over - I just think you've very incorrectly pidgeon holed Kevin Love. I saw most of his games in college - and many in the pros. The numbers seem to back up what I see - a guy that can hit the three, hit the jumper, but ALSO mixes it up inside - scoring points and drawing fouls. Getting his shot blocked just means he gives it another go. "Glorified spot up shooters" don't find a way to grab 12.2% of the offensive rebounds. They are more like Dirk's 2.3% ORB%. And...... Dirk is pretty good - despite being a glorified spot up shooter - nothing wrong with that.

kevin love is bill laimbeer without the dirty tricks/defense. a super role player for sure. would make a great pick and pop player with rubio.

I wouldn't consider Kevin Love a star. More like a role player... kevin love has a role player's mentality...

a role player? just out of curiosity, how many other players in league history that over the span of a whole season lead their team in minutes played, total rebounding, reb/g, points scored, pts/g, overall shooting, and FTAs, would you consider to be just a role player?...

he gets his shot blocked a lot inside. he has difficulty shooting over taller players. he's not a go to guy when the game is on the line. he's a glorified spot up shooter on offense... he's not good at finishing plays inside...

so he gets his shot blocked inside alot. did you know that last season (1) close to 2/5 of all of his FGAs came from within 3 feet of the basket, (2) he shot about a league average 60% on these shots, but (3) he shot more FTAs on his team than any other two teammates combined (odds are being he got fouled alot near the basket) and hit those at an excellent 85%. he scored almost as many points on FTAs (424) as he did on FGAs within 3 feet of the basket (229 FGM for 458 pts). assuming alot of those FTAs came when he was fouled trying to score near the basket, that would make his overall shooting from the inside much higher than 60%...

did you also know that the 6-10 in height love shot 85% on 499 FTAs last year, and that you can count on one hand the number of 6-10 players over the last 30 years of league history that shot that well or better on as many FTAs in one season? and he's just 22 years of age...

i see him as a marion type super role player...

again how is marion just a role player? from 00-01 to 09-10 (10 years) among all nba players he played the 4th most minutes, scored the 12th most points, grabbed the 4th most rebounds, got the 3rd most steals and the 7th most blocked shots (being just 6-7 in height). except for scoring those stats are all better than those of dirk nowirzki, who played those same years and similar total minutes, and they are comparable to if not better than the stats of elton brand over that same time. was elton brand also just a role player?...

in 6 of the 7 seasons marion played for phoenix (00-01 to 06-07) he lead them in total rebounds (2nd the other season), and in 3 of the 7 was tops in most points scored and in 3 of the other 4 seasons scored the 2nd most total points. from 04-05 to 06-07 when the suns averaged 59 wins a season he lead them in - by far - total rebounds, total steals, and total points scored...

he was far more star player than role player, with a salary commensurate to that of a star (average of $13 mil/yr from 03-04 to 06-07)...

I'm with you Bob - I think we both see Love as a bit more than a taller, girthier JJ Redick.....

This argument seems silly to me - it's funny how some people can see some players as being severly limited somehow because they are are only elite at SOME things (ignoring how hard it is to be elite at ANYTHING - let alone just SOME things) - and not elite at the things THEY want them to be elite at (it seems, in this case, is maybe desiring one to be more athletic and a better back to the basket/low post player). It reminds me of the people that try to somehow reason Shaq wasn't elite because he couldn't hit a jumper or a free throw. I can't believe how many times I've heard that argument in the past. It got argued less after he won a championship - just how Euros are no longer "soft" now that Pau & Dirk got their championships. I guess only white Americans are soft now after reading this thread.....

Like I sarcastically commented before - Dirk seems to be more of a glorified role player than Love even by that earlier argument. At least love is more proficient at scoring near the hoop, drawing fouls, much better rebounder, and a much better outlet passer. I'm in no way saying Dirk is a role player btw, or that Love is better (they are DIFFERENT), I'm just saying anyone can reason anything if they try hard enough.....

noypi wrote:

Statman wrote:

noypi wrote: i hope he doesn't end up being another spencer hawes.

Or Kevin Love?

god, i hope not. from the video you've just posted here, he's capable of more than that.

Man, it totally would suck to be an efficient scoring 20 & 15 player in the NBA - they are like a dime a dozen.