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are they (white americans) intimidated by black players? is it because the american game today relies more on athleticism over fundamentals?

noypi wrote:are they (white americans) intimidated by black players? is it because the american game today relies more on athleticism over fundamentals?

As a white basketball player, I was not intimidated by anyone. Except maybe Alonzo Mourning. That wasn't a racial thing, though -- I was attempting a 3 from the top of the circle and Zo blocked it after starting from the paint, almost under the frigging basket. Ridiculous. I was a reasonably good high school athlete, but was too small (6-2) and not athletic enough to play at higher levels (especially after I wrecked my knee). Before my knee injury, maybe I could've played at a small D-I school. More likely DII or DIII.

Also, what exactly do you mean by "the American game today relies more on athleticism over fundamentals"? Long distance shooting, for example, is as good as it's ever been. I don't have FT% through the years on my spreadsheet, but that's been a bit better league-wide in recent years as well. The NBA went through a period of heavy iso basketball, which was a logical strategy that grew out of their illegal defense rules at the time. That's changed quite a bit since the new rules went into effect.

The intimidation may be on the part of white parents, who might push their kids into other sports like baseball and Football because "everybody knows" basketball is a "black" sport. Other countries don't have these racial hangups, which is why the best white players are from foreign countries (Dirk, Nash, Ginobili, the Gasols)

That could be an answer, AYC. I don't think so, but it's possible.

Is this even worth a serious discussion, though? I really don't care about the ethnic composition of the NBA, or anything else, to be honest. I know that many are more responsive to race than I am. *shrug*

I think it might be a socio-economic thing too. Affluent whites live in the suburbs where you see more of them playing sports like: soccer, lacrosse, tennis, baseball, and football. Basketball for many is still an inner city game and due to the unfortunate income disparity in this country you see larger groupings of minorities in cities than you did in the burbs. I think you guys may be right though that some parents may push their kids toward sports other than basketball. Not sure why though.

kjb wrote:Also, what exactly do you mean by "the American game today relies more on athleticism over fundamentals"? Long distance shooting, for example, is as good as it's ever been. I don't have FT% through the years on my spreadsheet, but that's been a bit better league-wide in recent years as well. The NBA went through a period of heavy iso basketball, which was a logical strategy that grew out of their illegal defense rules at the time. That's changed quite a bit since the new rules went into effect.

American old school players used to be able to do three things on offense: shoot, drive and post up. Now it's just 2/3. Prime examples: Lebron James, Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard

during the last 2 decades of NBA ball, the emphasis is more on athletic plays over fundamentals and intelligent basketball. And that has wiped out a whole generation of white American players in the USA because they're just as lacking fundamentally as black American players. At least black players still have the athleticism part. They (white american ballers) don't have the confidence or fearlessness of some European players. It's like it's been beaten out of them for the last 20 years.

AYC wrote:Other countries don't have these racial hangups, which is why the best white players are from foreign countries (Dirk, Nash, Ginobili, the Gasols)

That's part of it. White american players have been Chick-i-fied (ie sissyfied/neutered/emasculated). You don't see confident and arrogant white american players like Bird or Tom Chambers anymore. Or a tough guard like Dan Majerle.

noypi wrote:

AYC wrote:Other countries don't have these racial hangups, which is why the best white players are from foreign countries (Dirk, Nash, Ginobili, the Gasols)

That's part of it. White american players have been Chick-i-fied (ie sissyfied/neutered/emasculated). You don't see confident and arrogant white american players like Bird or Tom Chambers anymore. Or a tough guard like Dan Majerle.

Are you saying Adam Morrison wasn't tough enough for you?

Statman wrote:

noypi wrote:

AYC wrote:Other countries don't have these racial hangups, which is why the best white players are from foreign countries (Dirk, Nash, Ginobili, the Gasols)

That's part of it. White american players have been Chick-i-fied (ie sissyfied/neutered/emasculated). You don't see confident and arrogant white american players like Bird or Tom Chambers anymore. Or a tough guard like Dan Majerle.

Are you saying Adam Morrison wasn't tough enough for you?

the toughest white player in the NBA is JJ Barea.

noypi wrote:

kjb wrote:Also, what exactly do you mean by "the American game today relies more on athleticism over fundamentals"? Long distance shooting, for example, is as good as it's ever been. I don't have FT% through the years on my spreadsheet, but that's been a bit better league-wide in recent years as well. The NBA went through a period of heavy iso basketball, which was a logical strategy that grew out of their illegal defense rules at the time. That's changed quite a bit since the new rules went into effect.

American old school players used to be able to do three things on offense: shoot, drive and post up. Now it's just 2/3. Prime examples: Lebron James, Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard

during the last 2 decades of NBA ball, the emphasis is more on athletic plays over fundamentals and intelligent basketball. And that has wiped out a whole generation of white American players in the USA because they're just as lacking fundamentally as black American players. At least black players still have the athleticism part. They (white american ballers) don't have the confidence or fearlessness of some European players. It's like it's been beaten out of them for the last 20 years.

Sorry, but I've watched basketball to buy the notion that American "old school players" could do three things where modern players can only do two. This is the sort of argument people make to say TV was much better at some point in the distant past, then compare something like Real Housewives of Dubuque or Flavor Flave's reality show or some insipid sitcom to stuff like Cheers or MASH.

Which three offensive threats did Kurt Rambis pose? Or Greg Kite? I grew up watching Bullets games and got the "treat" of players with great fundamentals like Charles Jones and Tom Hammonds. When I look back at games from previous eras, I'm often struck by how crappy some of the play was. I don't think players today are much different than the players of yesteryear, except that there's been a general de-emphasis on post-up play and a greater emphasis on 3pt shooting. I think that's more stylistic than anything else, though.

Yeah, there aren't many white Americans in the NBA. While the current players are more athletic, I think you have a LONG ways to go to prove the premise that fundamentals have declined. I know lots of people say that it's so, but there's scant evidence provided. And, I think a fair amount of that "fundamentals have declined" stuff is filtered through the haze of fond memory.

And, I come back to the "so what" question. Is there some reason we should be concerned that there aren't as many whites in the NBA?

noypi wrote:

AYC wrote:Other countries don't have these racial hangups, which is why the best white players are from foreign countries (Dirk, Nash, Ginobili, the Gasols)

That's part of it. White american players have been Chick-i-fied (ie sissyfied/neutered/emasculated). You don't see confident and arrogant white american players like Bird or Tom Chambers anymore. Or a tough guard like Dan Majerle.

Yes, Kevin Love and Jeff Foster are noted for their sissiness. David Lee is a wuss.

Is there a point to this?

I agree with kjb; players aren't any less fundamentally sound than they used to be. The mid-range jumper has died because team's realize it's an inefficient shot. Why shoot from 20 ft for two when you can shoot from 24 ft and get three? And defensive "fundamentals" have grown by leaps and bounds over the last twenty years. Watch a game from the sixties (they have them on youtube) and you'll be shocked by the the total lack of defense and shot selection. Nothing funnier than watching Satch Sanders brick 20-footer after 20-footer; today a roleplayer like Satch would be benched for jacking up such bad shots, but that was common in the past (just look at the shooting percentages in those days).

And defensive "fundamentals" have grown by leaps and bounds over the last twenty years.

just how exactly? just what leaps and bounds are good defensive teams doing now that good defensive teams of 25-30 years ago like the early to mid 1980s milwaukee bucks or the late 70s to early 80s phoenix suns didn't do?...

Watch a game from the sixties (they have them on youtube) and you'll be shocked by the the total lack of defense and shot selection.

what's shocking is this statement...

Nothing funnier than watching Satch Sanders brick 20-footer after 20-footer

sanders was boston's top defender after russell during most of the 1960s. btw, you by chance watch the nba of today? josh smith shot 32% from 10'-3ptline the last 5 years, yet still jacked up some 300 shots a year from that range...

today a roleplayer like Satch

what makes sanders a role player? from 61-62 to 69-70 he played the 3rd most total minutes, grabbed the 2nd most total rebounds, and scored the 4th most total points on the celtics, a team that just happened to win the title in 7 of those 9 seasons, all while playing excellent defense. i'd say that makes him one of the celtics' best all-around players of that time...

would be benched for jacking up such bad shots

not many teams bench hall of fame players in their prime...

kjb wrote:

noypi wrote:

AYC wrote:Other countries don't have these racial hangups, which is why the best white players are from foreign countries (Dirk, Nash, Ginobili, the Gasols)

That's part of it. White american players have been Chick-i-fied (ie sissyfied/neutered/emasculated). You don't see confident and arrogant white american players like Bird or Tom Chambers anymore. Or a tough guard like Dan Majerle.

Yes, Kevin Love and Jeff Foster are noted for their sissiness. David Lee is a wuss.

Is there a point to this?

they're not dominant take-charge, go-to leaders, kjb. even kevin love, for all his gaudy stats. they have a role-player's mentality. Can't say the same thing about Dirk, Pau, Manu or Nash.

Which three offensive threats did Kurt Rambis pose? Or Greg Kite?

uhmm... bird, mchale, tom chambers? these are the "recent" white american players from the 80s who were dominant alpha dog players.

I don't think players today are much different than the players of yesteryear, except that there's been a general de-emphasis on post-up play and a greater emphasis on 3pt shooting. I think that's more stylistic than anything else, though.

Only because the 3pt shot was invented in 1980.

And, I come back to the "so what" question. Is there some reason we should be concerned that there aren't as many whites in the NBA?

aren't you at least curious as to why some of the best white players in the NBA are from Europe or South America, not in the U.S.?