APBRmetrics Ring of Honor: Constitution
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:20 am
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RocketsFan
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: APBRmetrics Ring of Honor: Constitution Reply with quote
Statement of Purpose:
The APBR Hall of Fame is designed to recognize the players who were truly professional basketball's elite players. We come here to debate the merits of players throughout the game's history, and to have fun.
Discussion is strongly encouraged here; don't just post your votes. From what I have seen of this message board, we know how to keep our debates civil.
Eligibility:
Players who played in the NBL/BAA/ABA/NBA are eligible. Following the Basketball Hall of Fame, a player becomes eligible in his sixth year of retirement. If a player players five games or fewer one year, and never tops that again, that is considered his first year of retirement.
Voting:
The first year of voting will take place in 1955, six years after the last BAA season before the merger. All players who retired in 1949 or earlier are on the ballot. Following that, we will move through the players annually.
There is no limit to how many players you may vote for. You are on the honor system; I trust you to vote only for players you feel are truly worthy of our Hall of Fame.
When voting, be sure to compare players to their contemporaries.
Your votes should reflect the impact you feel players had on their teams' success. Most, if not all, of us will use statistics to measure this. Of course, we will all have different ways of quantifying a player's value.
To make it a little more difficult to enter the APBR Hall of Fame, a player must receive at least 80% of the votes. If he fails to meet this standard, he will be moved to next year's ballot. A player's eligibility never expires.
Voting will take place weekly, and will start on Monday, February 13. Hopefully that gives everyone enough time to submit their ballots ahead of time for the first elections. You are free to submit your ballot ahead of time to me, 94by50, ziller, or caperry, if you are unable to vote any week. I will post a schedule.
Notes:
- I have not set a minimum or maximum on the number of players you can vote for, because I don't know what either figure should be, and I feel it isn't necessary here.
- I chose the 80% of the vote method rather than ranking the players, because I feel the latter hinders the chances of deserving players getting in. I think 80% is a good figure to separate the great from the very good.
- The voting will start on Mondays. If enough people prefer I move the opening vote up a week, or postpone it, I will do so.
- You are expected to research the players thoroughly. If you want to make an argument for your candidate, come prepared to back it up.
- I would like people to join me in helping write mini-biographies, no more than a paragraph or two, about the inductees. Just volunteer, and you'll get that player, first come, first serve.
- Please note that this constitution is only tentative; I am just trying to set up some rules for us to work with. If there is enough opposition, and I mean strong opposition against something that has been laid forth here, I will change it. If a question has not been answered, just pm me. I will make any changes necessary to the constitution to help clarify things.
Last edited by RocketsFan on Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:49 pm; edited 4 times in total
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RocketsFan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
APBR Hall of Fame Voting Schedule (Subject to change).
2006
2/13-2/19 - 1955 and prior
2/20-2/26 - 1956
2/27-3/05 - 1957
3/06-3/12 - 1958
3/13-3/19 - 1959
3/20-3/26 - 1960
3/27-4/02 - 1961
4/03-4/09 - 1962
4/10-4/16 - 1963
4/17-4/23 - 1964
4/24-4/30 - 1965
5/01-5/07 - 1966
5/08-5/14 - 1967
5/15-5/21 - 1968
5/22-5/28 - 1969
5/29-6/04 - 1970
6/05-6/11 - 1971
6/12-6/18 - 1972
6/19-6/25 - 1973
6/26-7/01 - 1974
7/02-7/08 - 1975
7/09-7/15 - 1976
7/16-7/22 - 1977
7/23-7/29 - 1978
7/30-8/05 - 1979
8/06-8/12 - 1980
8/13-8/19 - 1981
8/20-8/26 - 1982
8/27-9/02 - 1983
9/03-9/09 - 1984
9/10-9/16 - 1985
9/17-9/23 - 1986
9/24-9/30 - 1987
10/01-10/07 - 1988
10/08-10/14 - 1989
10/15-10/21 - 1990
10/22-10/28 - 1991
10/29-11/04 - 1992
11/05-11/11 - 1993
11/12-11/18 - 1994
11/19-11/25 - 1995
11/26-12/02 - 1996
12/03-12/09 - 1997
12/10-12/16 - 1998
12/17-12/23 - 1999
12/24-12/30 - 2000
12/31-1/06 - 2001
2007
1/07-1/13 - 2002
1/14-1/20 - 2003
1/21-1/27 - 2004
1/28-2/03 - 2005
2/04-2/10 - 2006
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caperry
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I think this is a very good summary. The only think I could think is, does not having any stipulation on how players many each person can vote for leave too much room for ambiguity? Meaning, does this HoF seek to identify the top 15% of players? the top 5%? just a few from every era? Should considering the cutoff for voting for someone be some kind of quantitative measure like the %s listed above, or is it understood to be more qualitative? Something to consider.
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Kevin Pelton
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Would you guys prefer I create a separate forum for this discussion?
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HoopStudies
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:13 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
admin wrote:
Would you guys prefer I create a separate forum for this discussion?
Yes, absolutely.
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RocketsFan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I suspect that we will have some people voting for a lot of players, and others voting for very few. However, with the 80% rule in place, it will work out that only the select few get enshrined.
But this might not happen, and if you feel the chances of the APBR Hall becoming overpopulated are too high, send in your suggestion of the maximum number of selections you can make each year.
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Bobster
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:50 am Post subject: Reply with quote
someone may want to mention this on the APBR yahoo list. there's probably quite a few people there who'd like to vote who are pretty knowledgeable on early pro basketball.
we also might be better off having a committee nominate candiates like the basketball hall of fame does so that some of the early players [like cowboy edwards and bobby mcdermott] get their fair shake.
beginning the voting process in a week or two might be a little overly ambitious - we should probably sound everybody out as to who's elegible to vote [i'd certainly prefer that it includes members from both this bord and the yahoo list], the qualifications should be discussed [the qualifications posted above seem appropriate, but if this is going to be an APBR Hall of Fame it should be open to all of its membership and should be open to discussion by all of its members].
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Mike G
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Whether or not this Hall is heading down the wrong road with 'Fame' as it's banner, Bobster forces us to recognize that 'APBR' does not refer solely to this group, but to another earlier one.
If this is the APBRMetrics Hall, its title should say so. APBR Yahoo has devolved into a mostly anti-metrics group that could overwhelm any statistical discussion we might attempt.
'Numbers aren't everything', as a mantra, may occasionally serve a useful purpose. But for examples of stat-defying 'cause I said so' arguments, please visit the Yahoo site.
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Analyze This
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't see a big difference with the existing hall of fame. And I don't see what it has to do with this forum. What I do see is two different topics (basketball hall of merit and this one)about the same "project".
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mtamada
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: Reply with quote
RocketsFan wrote:
Statement of Purpose:
The APBR Hall of Fame is designed to recognize the players who were truly professional basketball's elite. It is a place for those of us who believe we can do better than the Basketball Hall of Fame voters have in selecting those players.
I have three comments.
1. I suggest that the second sentence be changed; the talk of "we can do things better" is reminiscent of the arrogance that sabrmetrically-inclined types in baseball are often accused of (and all too often are guilty of).
2. The sentence also ignores the fact that the Basketball Hall of Fame does more than recognize "professional basketball's elite". Players who had minimal professional careers (John Wooden -- inducted as a player as well as a coach, Hank Luisetti, Cheryl Miller, etc. etc.) or mediocre ones (Bill Bradley) are solidly in the Basketball Hall of Fame, because it recognizes college and amateur contributions, and off the court contributions, in additional to professional careers.
If this group wants to vote for players based solely on their professional careers, that's great, but that doesn't make this a "better" Hall of Fame. Different, and more suited towards what we're interested in (professional players), but not better.
So I suggest that the sentence be change to something like this: "Unlike the Basketball Hall of Fame, we elect players based solely on the excellence of their professional careers."
3. There's a problem with the name in the first sentence too: before you start calling this the APBR Hall of Fame, you might want to consult with APBR (the Association for Professional Basketball Research) first. There actually is an APBR, and it's easy to join -- but this APBRMetrics website is not it.
The actual APBR website is here: http://hometown.aol.com/bradleyrd/apbr.html
So at a minimum the name should be something like the APBRMetric Hall of Fame. Personally I think using the original phrasing -- APBRMetric Hall of Merit, or even better just "Net Hall of Merit" -- would be better because I think Halls of Fame should be created by well-established and respected organizations whose opinions are listened to and trusted by many. This website may get there someday, but it's not there yet.
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94by50
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: Reply with quote
mtamada wrote:
1. I suggest that the second sentence be changed; the talk of "we can do things better" is reminiscent of the arrogance that sabrmetrically-inclined types in baseball are often accused of (and all too often are guilty of).
I agree.
mtamada wrote:
2. The sentence also ignores the fact that the Basketball Hall of Fame does more than recognize "professional basketball's elite". Players who had minimal professional careers (John Wooden -- inducted as a player as well as a coach, Hank Luisetti, Cheryl Miller, etc. etc.) or mediocre ones (Bill Bradley) are solidly in the Basketball Hall of Fame, because it recognizes college and amateur contributions, and off the court contributions, in additional to professional careers.
If this group wants to vote for players based solely on their professional careers, that's great, but that doesn't make this a "better" Hall of Fame. Different, and more suited towards what we're interested in (professional players), but not better.
So I suggest that the sentence be change to something like this: "Unlike the Basketball Hall of Fame, we elect players based solely on the excellence of their professional careers."
I agree, again.
mtamada wrote:
3. There's a problem with the name in the first sentence too: before you start calling this the APBR Hall of Fame, you might want to consult with APBR (the Association for Professional Basketball Research) first. There actually is an APBR, and it's easy to join -- but this APBRMetrics website is not it.
That's my fault. I simply suggested the name off-hand without any serious thinking. I was hoping someone would come up with an alternative.
mtamada wrote:
So at a minimum the name should be something like the APBRMetric Hall of Fame. Personally I think using the original phrasing -- APBRMetric Hall of Merit, or even better just "Net Hall of Merit" -- would be better because I think Halls of Fame should be created by well-established and respected organizations whose opinions are listened to and trusted by many. This website may get there someday, but it's not there yet.
Good point. I would go with APBRMetrics Hall of Merit, although I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't some alternative that doesn't include the word "Hall", like "Honor Roll" (although that sounds cheesy).
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Bobster
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:52 am Post subject: Reply with quote
"ring of honor" might be another alternative.
"APBRmetrics" rather than APBR would be my preference if the voting is exclusive to this board, and if that's the route that's chosen, i'd certainly have no problem with it and will participate in the voting.
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gabefarkas
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: Reply with quote
I just want to clarify something about the voting.
When we're voting for say 1973 and before, do we (a) pretend that it's 1973 and judge players only against their contemporaries and players before them, or (b) judge them in the grand scheme of things, taking into account also players that came after them?
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RocketsFan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
You're right, bobster, the APBR part should be changed to APBRmetrics. I'm not entirely enthused about Hall of Fame or Hall of Merit, so let's keep the ideas coming. Ring of Honor sounds nice. We'll use that for now, until we get a name that receives a lot of support (it may be that one).
Analyze This, what exactly do you mean when you say you don't see a big difference with the existing hall? And I just suggested this idea as a fun project we could all work on.
mtamada, I actually ripped that attitude of the Baseball HOM constitution, where they say that they believe the Baseball HOF has done a less than perfect job, and they can do better. But it does seem arrogant, and I'll change it. I think the best option would be to eliminate the second sentence, and add "players" to the first.
Finally, gabefarkas, I think it would be best if voters acted like they were an actual voter in the year the voting takes place. So judge players against their contemporaries and the players before. Otherwise, I fear we might overuse the idea that players have gotten better over time (which I believe).
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HoopStudies
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Frankly, I think we should have a statistical, APBRMetric HOF, and a more general one.
I usually don't like doing that, but having seen discussions on fame degrade into a multitude of painful discussions, I think it will be easier to limit those to painful statistical discussions.
Further, there are a lot of players for whom there is no controversy that they should be in. But those that end up different between the metric group and the non-metric could be interesting.
Pistol Pete is always a tough one to have both statistical and non-statistical conversations occurring.
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mtamada
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Ring of Honor does sound nice; Hall of Merit would probably be my next choice; Hall of Fame would be my last choice.
Preceding it with "APBRMetric", as in APBRMetric Ring of Honor, is fine with me too. I've mentioned before that I (and not just me, reporters have commented on it too) that "APBRMetrics" is aesthetically a rather hideous name, but that's a separate issue. Given that this website is called "APBRMetrics", then "APBRMetric Ring of Honor" or the like is a highly logical name.
Regarding DeanO's points: if we do make the election based solely on statistics (professional ones at that), I think that will simplify the Pistol Pete debates considerably. He might not be a clear non-electee, but without his college career and his non-statistical Pistol persona, two of his strongest pillars of support for election are taken away.
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caperry
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I think we should only take a players' professional careers into consideration, using statistics as a solid baseline on making judgements. I'm also not sure how to take into account playoff performances, which always more things more difficult from a stats perspective (varying sample size, how much to penalize for fewer playoff appearances). I'll be relying mainly on regular season performance because of that probably. And I think a player must be judged against others in his era, after all, Mikan and Schayes would probably be 12th men at best in today's game, and we can all agree any HoF without them would be ludicrous.
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HoopStudies
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
caperry wrote:
I think we should only take a players' professional careers into consideration, using statistics as a solid baseline on making judgements. I'm also not sure how to take into account playoff performances, which always more things more difficult from a stats perspective (varying sample size, how much to penalize for fewer playoff appearances). I'll be relying mainly on regular season performance because of that probably. And I think a player must be judged against others in his era, after all, Mikan and Schayes would probably be 12th men at best in today's game, and we can all agree any HoF without them would be ludicrous.
I agree with most of this, except that playoff data should definitely be considered when possible. There is a buried philosophical question that we will unbury by raising the post-season data -- How much should playoff performance matter when it differs from regular season data? We all have our own answer for that and I don't see a great quantitative way to answer it, but perhaps showing more of the playoff data will give a firmer basis for doing so.
But, yes,
- compare relative to their era,
- compare using stats,
- compare using only pro stats (I like the combination college/pro performance for the regular HOF, but not here).
That should provide plenty of progress toward agreement, but also allow room for questions and insight as the analyses progress. Through this process, may we not turn anyone into Skip Bayless or Steven A. Smith, the two angriest men in sports -- it doesn't actually move us to an answer. It may be entertaining to watch Bayless have an aneurysm every day on camera, but it's kind of annoying here.
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RocketsFan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I added a couple of notes to the constitution. The first is that players are to be compared to other players of their era, the second, that a player's value should be measured by how he contributes to his team's success. Most of us will measure this through statistics.
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caperry
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:01 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Is there any easy way to access AV values in the playoffs for each player? I find this a useful tool for evaluation and would like to include the playoff results. I guess I could calculate it myself, but I'm lazy.
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94by50
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:40 am Post subject: Reply with quote
HoopStudies wrote:
It may be entertaining to watch Bayless have an aneurysm every day on camera, but it's kind of annoying here.
No... no, watching Skip flip out isn't entertaining, either. Neither is reading his columns on Page 2. (But that's getting away from the point of the thread.)
Regarding what Bobster said earlier about mentioning this on the APBR Yahoo list: I would like to have as many people involved in this as possible. I know nothing about professional basketball before the BAA/NBA, and I'm not very familiar with the ABA, so I would welcome input from those who know more than I do about those things.
Another comment: perhaps it's trivial, but I prefer a 75% vote as the line for induction, as opposed to 80%. My only reason is that it's what just about everyone else has done with the real Halls. I'm concerned that 80% is a little too restrictive, but that's a matter of personal preference.
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Mike G
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: Reply with quote
caperry wrote:
I think we should only take a players' professional careers into consideration, using statistics as a solid baseline on making judgements.
.
So far, so good. Even if we wanted to weigh in college stats, we wouldn't know how to. But we don't want to, right?
Quote:
I'm also not sure how to take into account playoff performances, which always more things more difficult from a stats perspective (varying sample size, how much to penalize for fewer playoff appearances). I'll be relying mainly on regular season performance because of that probably.
Rather than 'penalize' anyone, how about just augmenting regular seasons with playoffs as a 'bonus'. This can be done annually, or looking at a playoff 'subcareer'. There's merit in both views.
Why does a great player have a lousy playoff career? Because he played on weak teams, because he didn't make his teammates better, because he padded his stats without winning? And once in the playoffs, did he tend to go 3-and-out, or did he impel his team into later rounds?
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94by50
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Mike G wrote:
Rather than 'penalize' anyone, how about just augmenting regular seasons with playoffs as a 'bonus'.
I agree - playoff performance should never penalize a player. Regular season participation is guaranteed, but opportunities in the playoffs are bound to be distributed unequally. So if a player only has one or two playoff appearances in his career, that shouldn't detract from his regular season performances at all.
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antcole
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
94by50 wrote:
Mike G wrote:
Rather than 'penalize' anyone, how about just augmenting regular seasons with playoffs as a 'bonus'.
I agree - playoff performance should never penalize a player. Regular season participation is guaranteed, but opportunities in the playoffs are bound to be distributed unequally. So if a player only has one or two playoff appearances in his career, that shouldn't detract from his regular season performances at all.
I agreee with part of your statement 94. Playoff appearances are dependant on team success so we shouldn't hold that against an individual player. However, I also believe that if a player gets into the postseason then that player should perform at or close to the their high level, because I think that the playoffs are more important than the regular season. To be quite honest, determining the importance of a player's greatness in the context of playoff success can be a pain in the ass.
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caperry
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
any ideas when the first week's ballot will be posted?
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94by50
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
antcole wrote:
I agreee with part of your statement 94. Playoff appearances are dependant on team success so we shouldn't hold that against an individual player. However, I also believe that if a player gets into the postseason then that player should perform at or close to the their high level, because I think that the playoffs are more important than the regular season. To be quite honest, determining the importance of a player's greatness in the context of playoff success can be a pain in the ass.
Agreed - I meant only to say that a player shouldn't be downgraded merely because he played for non-playoff teams. Such as Elton Brand or Shareef Abdur-Rahim...
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RocketsFan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
caperry wrote:
any ideas when the first week's ballot will be posted?
I wasn't thinking of voting based on a ballot; I think just putting forth your choices for the Hall will do fine. I think we can rely on people to vote only for players who truly deserve consideration. I'll just total up the number of votes each player gets and divide by the number of voters.
If everyone wants to do it ballot style, then let me know soon. I would guess we would all make nominations, then vote based on the nominees.
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caperry
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
for 'ballot', i meant a listing of those retiring in 1950 or before (for the case of the 1955 ballot).
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RocketsFan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
caperry wrote:
for 'ballot', i meant a listing of those retiring in 1950 or before (for the case of the 1955 ballot).
I'm afraid you'll have to find the players yourself. I don't have time to organize a list of players based on their retirement year. The APBR website has some good info on early players.
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ziller
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
caperry wrote:
for 'ballot', i meant a listing of those retiring in 1950 or before (for the case of the 1955 ballot).
I actually think this is essential for the earlier years. Difficult, perhaps, but absolutely essential.
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ziller
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually, I think I've found a way to get a list together. I'll update this afternoon with pre-1950 retirees, hopefully.
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ziller
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm guessing we should probably open a new thread for the ballot, but I'll paste it here. I used basketballreference.com's alphabetical player lists, which includes debut and retirement years. I did alter that slightly - changing for instance 1946-1950 to 1947-1951, since the br.com is talking about the 1946-47 season through the 1950-1951 season. Makes more sense.
I have a spreadsheet I'll make fully available shortly that includes the retired players up to the 1998-99 season.
But for players eligible for the first ballot (retired by 1949), here's your list:
Chet Aubuchon
Norm Baker
Herschel Baltimore
John Barr
Frankie Baumholtz
Moe Becker
Hank Biasatti
Al Brightman
Audley Brindley
Harold Brown
Leon Brown
Mike Bytzura
Tom Callahan
Chet Carlisle
Marion Cluggish
Ken Corley
Hal Crisler
Armand Cure
Aubrey Davis
Bill Davis
Henry Dehnert
Bob Dille
Bob Duffy
Don Eliason
Ned Endress
Joe Fabel
Bob Faught
Bill Fenley
Nat Frankel
Frido Frey
Frank Fucarino
Bob Gantt
Gorham Getchell
Gene Gillette
Ben Goldfaden
George Grimshaw
Matt Guokas
Mel Hirsch
Roy Hurley
Winfred Jacobs
Harold Johnson
Roger Jorgensen
Tony Kappen
Ed Kasid
Wilbert Kautz
Ken Keller
Tom King
Harold Kottman
Pete Lalich
Hank Lefkowitz
Al Lujack
Frank Mangiapane
Peter Maravich
Howie Mccarty
Ed Melvin
Zigmund Mihalik
Nat Militzok
Harry Miller
Walt Miller
John Mills
Bob Mullens
Dick Murphy
John Murphy
Al Negratti
Garland O'shields
Doyle Parrack
George Pastushok
George Pearcy
Henry Pearcy
Rob Rensberger
Alexander Rosenberg
Hank Rosenstein
Ossie Schectman
Nick Shaback
Bob Shea
Fred Sheffield
Ralph Siewert
Johnny Simmons
Deb Smith
Gino Sovran
Lou Spicer
Art Stolkey
Wallace Sydnor
Virgil Vaughn
Michael Wallace
Forest Weber
Hank Zeller
John Abramovic
Chuck Connors
Bill Downey
Dick Fitzgerald
Herm Fuetsch
Wilfred Goodwin
Leo Gottlieb
Wyndol Gray
Cecil Hankins
Jack Hewson
Matthew Hickey
Art Hillhouse
Adolph Hoefer
Dick Holub
Paul Huston
John Janisch
Ralph Kaplowitz
Gerard Kelly
Herm Klotz
Saul Mariaschin
Donald Martin
Chet Mcnabb
George Mearns
Wat Misaka
George Munroe
Gene Rock
Jack Rocker
Mickey Rottner
Ben Schadler
Mel Thurston
Ray Wertis
Johnny Bach
Hank Beenders
Gale Bishop
Mike Bloom
Darrell Brown
Ernie Calverley
Joe Colone
Howie Dallmar
Jack Dwan
Lonnie Eggleston
Eddie Ehlers
Jack Eskridge
Phil Farbman
Bob Fitzgerald
Donnie Forman
Earl Gardner
Jack Garfinkel
George Glamack
Coulby Gunther
Ralph Hamilton
John Hazen
Doug Holcomb
Bob Hubbard
Johnny Jorgensen
Edwin Kachan
Tom Kelly
Andy Kostecka
Dan Kraus
Herb Krautblatt
Ray Kuka
Grady Lewis
Al Lucas
Jack Maddox
Lionel Malamed
Don Martin
Mel Mcgaha
Carl Meinhold
Bill Miller
Elmo Morgenthaler
Angelo Musi
Fred Nagy
Paul Napolitano
Stan Noszka
Bob O'brien
Francis O'grady
Fred Paine
John Palmer
Marty Passaglia
Jake Pelkington
Roy Pugh
Howie Rader
Ray Ramsey
Mel Riebe
Lee Robbins
Irv Rothenberg
Giff Roux
Ben Scharnus
Otto Schnellbacher
Earl Shannon
Dick Shrider
Donald Smith
Jim Springer
Jim Spruill
Stan Stutz
Sid Tannenbaum
Howard Tidrick
Jack Tingle
Andy Tonkovich
Irv Torgoff
Dick Wehr
Ward Williams
Matt Zunic
Does this look right to everyone? If not, let me know. I'll try to figure out what's going on.
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jkubatko
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
ziller wrote:
I'm guessing we should probably open a new thread for the ballot, but I'll paste it here. I used basketballreference.com's alphabetical player lists, which includes debut and retirement years.
Bah, you should have used my site.
I have just added pages that list players by their final season, along with their career statistics. Here is an example.
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ziller
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, I'll be damned.
This will be highly efficient for use during this project. Brilliant, as always JKub.
(And you know I much prefer your ref site anyways.)
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RocketsFan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the help, guys. I had no idea there were pages out there that showed all players retirement years, and I didn't want to figure it out manually (I've got three papers hanging over my head).
The only problem I see with your list of pre-1950 players, ziller, is that it doesn't include NBL players. Still, it's a great resource. I appreciate the work you and Justin have done.
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caperry
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
jkubatko wrote:
Bah, you should have used my site. Smile
That's very helpful, although am i the only one who can't acccess any lists from 1950 or earlier?
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jkubatko
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
caperry wrote:
That's very helpful, although am i the only one who can't acccess any lists from 1950 or earlier?
They are there, but they are listed under "BAA." Here are the 1947, 1948, and 1949 seasons.
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Bobster
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: Reply with quote
ziller wrote:
I'm guessing we should probably open a new thread for the ballot, but I'll paste it here. I used basketballreference.com's alphabetical player lists, which includes debut and retirement years. I did alter that slightly - changing for instance 1946-1950 to 1947-1951, since the br.com is talking about the 1946-47 season through the 1950-1951 season. Makes more sense.
I have a spreadsheet I'll make fully available shortly that includes the retired players up to the 1998-99 season.
[snip.]
Does this look right to everyone? If not, let me know. I'll try to figure out what's going on.
unfortunately the list only includes BAA/NBA players.
and there could probably be some simple qualifier [like four years of play, or 200 games played] to weed out a lot of players who have zero chance of getting voted in. [for instance - sure ossie schectman plays some minor significance in NBA history, but is he really a worthy candidate? (he played one season and averaged 8.1 PPG)]
perhaps a list of four-year NBL players can be voted on first before moving on to the BAA - least the players like ed sadowski, bobby mcdermott and leroy edwards get ignored.
i decided on four years or 200 games after taking maurice stokes and clark kellogg into consideration - both exceptional talents who had their careers cut short by injuries. and while we might not feel they deserve induction, they probably deserve consideration. alex groza and ralph beard (who both played two seasons and 125-130 games) would not, and that's acceptable to me.
would i vote for stokes and kellogg? that's not really the point, but i think it's reasonable that they would be the standard for consideration.
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Bobster
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:25 am Post subject: Reply with quote
PS - using the 4-year, 200 game qualifier the retiring players from 1946-1950 who would qualify [NBA-only] would be -
jim seminoff
ed sadowski
bob feerick
george nostrand
don putman
dick schulz
bob doll
butch van breda kolff
art spector
which would be a much more managable list for discussion.
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ziller
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree whole-heartedly with Bob's suggestion. And once we get past this first election, the ballot will be much easier to manage, thanks to Justin's work.
Anyone got a list of qualifying NBLers?
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jkubatko
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I thought it might be helpful for you all to have a listing of All-League selections by player.
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jkubatko
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I also added a page containing All-Star game selections by player.
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Bobster
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
ziller wrote:
I agree whole-heartedly with Bob's suggestion. And once we get past this first election, the ballot will be much easier to manage, thanks to Justin's work.
Anyone got a list of qualifying NBLers?
i can cobble one together saturday if no one else has one. i'll have to crack open some dusty old books though.....
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gabefarkas
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:29 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Justin - I love how on other pages you repeated the headings during even intervals...like every 10-20 lines or so. That might make those new pages easier to read.
Other than that, fantastic work as always!
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jkubatko
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
gabefarkas wrote:
Justin - I love how on other pages you repeated the headings during even intervals...like every 10-20 lines or so. That might make those new pages easier to read.
Done and done.
gabefarkas wrote:
Other than that, fantastic work as always!
Thanks. You guys (and gals) are always welcome to express your gratitude by sponsoring a page or two.
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gabefarkas
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
jkubatko wrote:
Thanks. You guys (and gals) are always welcome to express your gratitude by sponsoring a page or two. Smile
what's your Tax ID number? Razz
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Bobster
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: Reply with quote
don't know if i missed anybody, but here's a list of players i found who played in the NBL and retired in 1950 or before -
Ray Adams 1941
Ernie Andres 1948
Scotty Armstrong 1942
Frank Baird 1942
Lou Barle 1943
Connie Mack Berry 1946
Paul Birch 1946
Price Brookfield 1950
Jerry Bush 1948
Howie Cable 1942
Bob Calihan 1949
Ed Dancker 1949
Bob Dietz 1948
Leroy Edwards 1949
Ned Endress 1947
Gene Englund 1950
Ed Erban 1947
Bob Fitzgerald 1949
Elmer Gainer 1950
Dutch Garfinkle 1949
Bob Gerber 1948
George Glamack 1949
Dale Hamilton 1950
Bill Hapac 1948
George Hesik 1942
Nat Hickey 1948
George Hogan 1946
Buddy Jeannette 1950
Wibs Kautz 1947
Leo Klier 1950
Otto Kolar 1942
Milo Komenich 1950
Pete Lalich 1947
Rube Lautenschlanger 1947
Ed Lewinski 1949
Fred Lewis 1950
Pat Linskey 1941
Al Lucas 1949
Bobby McDermott 1949
Bill McDonald 1948
Vince McGowan 1945
Walt Miller 1947
Johnny Moir 1946
Max Morris 1950
Bobby Neu 1946
Richie Niemiera 1950
Tommy Nisbet 1943
Woody Norris 1948
Paul Nowalk 1942
Johnny Orr 1950
Jack Ozburn 1942
Stan Patrick 1950
Jake Pelkington 1949
Dave Quabius 1943
Mel Riebe 1949
Eddie Riska 1949
Ed Sadowski 1950
Herm Schaefer 1950
Milt Schoon 1950
Dick Schultz 1950
Rollie Seltz 1950
Charley Shipp 1950
Don Smith 1949
George Sobek 1950
Paul Sokody 1943
Joe Sotak 1941
Ken Suesans 1949
Bob Sullivan 1948
Stan Szukala 1947
Hal Tidrick 1949
Irv Torgoff 1949
Bob Tough 1950
Blackie Towery 1950
Dick Triptow 1950
Ralph Vaughn 1947
Clint Wager 1950
Herm Witasek 1942
Tom Wukovits 1946
Jewell Young 1946
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RocketsFan
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: APBRmetrics Ring of Honor: Constitution Reply with quote
Statement of Purpose:
The APBR Hall of Fame is designed to recognize the players who were truly professional basketball's elite players. We come here to debate the merits of players throughout the game's history, and to have fun.
Discussion is strongly encouraged here; don't just post your votes. From what I have seen of this message board, we know how to keep our debates civil.
Eligibility:
Players who played in the NBL/BAA/ABA/NBA are eligible. Following the Basketball Hall of Fame, a player becomes eligible in his sixth year of retirement. If a player players five games or fewer one year, and never tops that again, that is considered his first year of retirement.
Voting:
The first year of voting will take place in 1955, six years after the last BAA season before the merger. All players who retired in 1949 or earlier are on the ballot. Following that, we will move through the players annually.
There is no limit to how many players you may vote for. You are on the honor system; I trust you to vote only for players you feel are truly worthy of our Hall of Fame.
When voting, be sure to compare players to their contemporaries.
Your votes should reflect the impact you feel players had on their teams' success. Most, if not all, of us will use statistics to measure this. Of course, we will all have different ways of quantifying a player's value.
To make it a little more difficult to enter the APBR Hall of Fame, a player must receive at least 80% of the votes. If he fails to meet this standard, he will be moved to next year's ballot. A player's eligibility never expires.
Voting will take place weekly, and will start on Monday, February 13. Hopefully that gives everyone enough time to submit their ballots ahead of time for the first elections. You are free to submit your ballot ahead of time to me, 94by50, ziller, or caperry, if you are unable to vote any week. I will post a schedule.
Notes:
- I have not set a minimum or maximum on the number of players you can vote for, because I don't know what either figure should be, and I feel it isn't necessary here.
- I chose the 80% of the vote method rather than ranking the players, because I feel the latter hinders the chances of deserving players getting in. I think 80% is a good figure to separate the great from the very good.
- The voting will start on Mondays. If enough people prefer I move the opening vote up a week, or postpone it, I will do so.
- You are expected to research the players thoroughly. If you want to make an argument for your candidate, come prepared to back it up.
- I would like people to join me in helping write mini-biographies, no more than a paragraph or two, about the inductees. Just volunteer, and you'll get that player, first come, first serve.
- Please note that this constitution is only tentative; I am just trying to set up some rules for us to work with. If there is enough opposition, and I mean strong opposition against something that has been laid forth here, I will change it. If a question has not been answered, just pm me. I will make any changes necessary to the constitution to help clarify things.
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RocketsFan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
APBR Hall of Fame Voting Schedule (Subject to change).
2006
2/13-2/19 - 1955 and prior
2/20-2/26 - 1956
2/27-3/05 - 1957
3/06-3/12 - 1958
3/13-3/19 - 1959
3/20-3/26 - 1960
3/27-4/02 - 1961
4/03-4/09 - 1962
4/10-4/16 - 1963
4/17-4/23 - 1964
4/24-4/30 - 1965
5/01-5/07 - 1966
5/08-5/14 - 1967
5/15-5/21 - 1968
5/22-5/28 - 1969
5/29-6/04 - 1970
6/05-6/11 - 1971
6/12-6/18 - 1972
6/19-6/25 - 1973
6/26-7/01 - 1974
7/02-7/08 - 1975
7/09-7/15 - 1976
7/16-7/22 - 1977
7/23-7/29 - 1978
7/30-8/05 - 1979
8/06-8/12 - 1980
8/13-8/19 - 1981
8/20-8/26 - 1982
8/27-9/02 - 1983
9/03-9/09 - 1984
9/10-9/16 - 1985
9/17-9/23 - 1986
9/24-9/30 - 1987
10/01-10/07 - 1988
10/08-10/14 - 1989
10/15-10/21 - 1990
10/22-10/28 - 1991
10/29-11/04 - 1992
11/05-11/11 - 1993
11/12-11/18 - 1994
11/19-11/25 - 1995
11/26-12/02 - 1996
12/03-12/09 - 1997
12/10-12/16 - 1998
12/17-12/23 - 1999
12/24-12/30 - 2000
12/31-1/06 - 2001
2007
1/07-1/13 - 2002
1/14-1/20 - 2003
1/21-1/27 - 2004
1/28-2/03 - 2005
2/04-2/10 - 2006
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caperry
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I think this is a very good summary. The only think I could think is, does not having any stipulation on how players many each person can vote for leave too much room for ambiguity? Meaning, does this HoF seek to identify the top 15% of players? the top 5%? just a few from every era? Should considering the cutoff for voting for someone be some kind of quantitative measure like the %s listed above, or is it understood to be more qualitative? Something to consider.
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Kevin Pelton
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Would you guys prefer I create a separate forum for this discussion?
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HoopStudies
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:13 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
admin wrote:
Would you guys prefer I create a separate forum for this discussion?
Yes, absolutely.
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RocketsFan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I suspect that we will have some people voting for a lot of players, and others voting for very few. However, with the 80% rule in place, it will work out that only the select few get enshrined.
But this might not happen, and if you feel the chances of the APBR Hall becoming overpopulated are too high, send in your suggestion of the maximum number of selections you can make each year.
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Bobster
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:50 am Post subject: Reply with quote
someone may want to mention this on the APBR yahoo list. there's probably quite a few people there who'd like to vote who are pretty knowledgeable on early pro basketball.
we also might be better off having a committee nominate candiates like the basketball hall of fame does so that some of the early players [like cowboy edwards and bobby mcdermott] get their fair shake.
beginning the voting process in a week or two might be a little overly ambitious - we should probably sound everybody out as to who's elegible to vote [i'd certainly prefer that it includes members from both this bord and the yahoo list], the qualifications should be discussed [the qualifications posted above seem appropriate, but if this is going to be an APBR Hall of Fame it should be open to all of its membership and should be open to discussion by all of its members].
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Mike G
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Whether or not this Hall is heading down the wrong road with 'Fame' as it's banner, Bobster forces us to recognize that 'APBR' does not refer solely to this group, but to another earlier one.
If this is the APBRMetrics Hall, its title should say so. APBR Yahoo has devolved into a mostly anti-metrics group that could overwhelm any statistical discussion we might attempt.
'Numbers aren't everything', as a mantra, may occasionally serve a useful purpose. But for examples of stat-defying 'cause I said so' arguments, please visit the Yahoo site.
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Analyze This
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't see a big difference with the existing hall of fame. And I don't see what it has to do with this forum. What I do see is two different topics (basketball hall of merit and this one)about the same "project".
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mtamada
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: Reply with quote
RocketsFan wrote:
Statement of Purpose:
The APBR Hall of Fame is designed to recognize the players who were truly professional basketball's elite. It is a place for those of us who believe we can do better than the Basketball Hall of Fame voters have in selecting those players.
I have three comments.
1. I suggest that the second sentence be changed; the talk of "we can do things better" is reminiscent of the arrogance that sabrmetrically-inclined types in baseball are often accused of (and all too often are guilty of).
2. The sentence also ignores the fact that the Basketball Hall of Fame does more than recognize "professional basketball's elite". Players who had minimal professional careers (John Wooden -- inducted as a player as well as a coach, Hank Luisetti, Cheryl Miller, etc. etc.) or mediocre ones (Bill Bradley) are solidly in the Basketball Hall of Fame, because it recognizes college and amateur contributions, and off the court contributions, in additional to professional careers.
If this group wants to vote for players based solely on their professional careers, that's great, but that doesn't make this a "better" Hall of Fame. Different, and more suited towards what we're interested in (professional players), but not better.
So I suggest that the sentence be change to something like this: "Unlike the Basketball Hall of Fame, we elect players based solely on the excellence of their professional careers."
3. There's a problem with the name in the first sentence too: before you start calling this the APBR Hall of Fame, you might want to consult with APBR (the Association for Professional Basketball Research) first. There actually is an APBR, and it's easy to join -- but this APBRMetrics website is not it.
The actual APBR website is here: http://hometown.aol.com/bradleyrd/apbr.html
So at a minimum the name should be something like the APBRMetric Hall of Fame. Personally I think using the original phrasing -- APBRMetric Hall of Merit, or even better just "Net Hall of Merit" -- would be better because I think Halls of Fame should be created by well-established and respected organizations whose opinions are listened to and trusted by many. This website may get there someday, but it's not there yet.
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94by50
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: Reply with quote
mtamada wrote:
1. I suggest that the second sentence be changed; the talk of "we can do things better" is reminiscent of the arrogance that sabrmetrically-inclined types in baseball are often accused of (and all too often are guilty of).
I agree.
mtamada wrote:
2. The sentence also ignores the fact that the Basketball Hall of Fame does more than recognize "professional basketball's elite". Players who had minimal professional careers (John Wooden -- inducted as a player as well as a coach, Hank Luisetti, Cheryl Miller, etc. etc.) or mediocre ones (Bill Bradley) are solidly in the Basketball Hall of Fame, because it recognizes college and amateur contributions, and off the court contributions, in additional to professional careers.
If this group wants to vote for players based solely on their professional careers, that's great, but that doesn't make this a "better" Hall of Fame. Different, and more suited towards what we're interested in (professional players), but not better.
So I suggest that the sentence be change to something like this: "Unlike the Basketball Hall of Fame, we elect players based solely on the excellence of their professional careers."
I agree, again.
mtamada wrote:
3. There's a problem with the name in the first sentence too: before you start calling this the APBR Hall of Fame, you might want to consult with APBR (the Association for Professional Basketball Research) first. There actually is an APBR, and it's easy to join -- but this APBRMetrics website is not it.
That's my fault. I simply suggested the name off-hand without any serious thinking. I was hoping someone would come up with an alternative.
mtamada wrote:
So at a minimum the name should be something like the APBRMetric Hall of Fame. Personally I think using the original phrasing -- APBRMetric Hall of Merit, or even better just "Net Hall of Merit" -- would be better because I think Halls of Fame should be created by well-established and respected organizations whose opinions are listened to and trusted by many. This website may get there someday, but it's not there yet.
Good point. I would go with APBRMetrics Hall of Merit, although I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't some alternative that doesn't include the word "Hall", like "Honor Roll" (although that sounds cheesy).
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Bobster
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:52 am Post subject: Reply with quote
"ring of honor" might be another alternative.
"APBRmetrics" rather than APBR would be my preference if the voting is exclusive to this board, and if that's the route that's chosen, i'd certainly have no problem with it and will participate in the voting.
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gabefarkas
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: Reply with quote
I just want to clarify something about the voting.
When we're voting for say 1973 and before, do we (a) pretend that it's 1973 and judge players only against their contemporaries and players before them, or (b) judge them in the grand scheme of things, taking into account also players that came after them?
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RocketsFan
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 404
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
You're right, bobster, the APBR part should be changed to APBRmetrics. I'm not entirely enthused about Hall of Fame or Hall of Merit, so let's keep the ideas coming. Ring of Honor sounds nice. We'll use that for now, until we get a name that receives a lot of support (it may be that one).
Analyze This, what exactly do you mean when you say you don't see a big difference with the existing hall? And I just suggested this idea as a fun project we could all work on.
mtamada, I actually ripped that attitude of the Baseball HOM constitution, where they say that they believe the Baseball HOF has done a less than perfect job, and they can do better. But it does seem arrogant, and I'll change it. I think the best option would be to eliminate the second sentence, and add "players" to the first.
Finally, gabefarkas, I think it would be best if voters acted like they were an actual voter in the year the voting takes place. So judge players against their contemporaries and the players before. Otherwise, I fear we might overuse the idea that players have gotten better over time (which I believe).
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HoopStudies
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Frankly, I think we should have a statistical, APBRMetric HOF, and a more general one.
I usually don't like doing that, but having seen discussions on fame degrade into a multitude of painful discussions, I think it will be easier to limit those to painful statistical discussions.
Further, there are a lot of players for whom there is no controversy that they should be in. But those that end up different between the metric group and the non-metric could be interesting.
Pistol Pete is always a tough one to have both statistical and non-statistical conversations occurring.
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mtamada
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Ring of Honor does sound nice; Hall of Merit would probably be my next choice; Hall of Fame would be my last choice.
Preceding it with "APBRMetric", as in APBRMetric Ring of Honor, is fine with me too. I've mentioned before that I (and not just me, reporters have commented on it too) that "APBRMetrics" is aesthetically a rather hideous name, but that's a separate issue. Given that this website is called "APBRMetrics", then "APBRMetric Ring of Honor" or the like is a highly logical name.
Regarding DeanO's points: if we do make the election based solely on statistics (professional ones at that), I think that will simplify the Pistol Pete debates considerably. He might not be a clear non-electee, but without his college career and his non-statistical Pistol persona, two of his strongest pillars of support for election are taken away.
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caperry
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I think we should only take a players' professional careers into consideration, using statistics as a solid baseline on making judgements. I'm also not sure how to take into account playoff performances, which always more things more difficult from a stats perspective (varying sample size, how much to penalize for fewer playoff appearances). I'll be relying mainly on regular season performance because of that probably. And I think a player must be judged against others in his era, after all, Mikan and Schayes would probably be 12th men at best in today's game, and we can all agree any HoF without them would be ludicrous.
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HoopStudies
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
caperry wrote:
I think we should only take a players' professional careers into consideration, using statistics as a solid baseline on making judgements. I'm also not sure how to take into account playoff performances, which always more things more difficult from a stats perspective (varying sample size, how much to penalize for fewer playoff appearances). I'll be relying mainly on regular season performance because of that probably. And I think a player must be judged against others in his era, after all, Mikan and Schayes would probably be 12th men at best in today's game, and we can all agree any HoF without them would be ludicrous.
I agree with most of this, except that playoff data should definitely be considered when possible. There is a buried philosophical question that we will unbury by raising the post-season data -- How much should playoff performance matter when it differs from regular season data? We all have our own answer for that and I don't see a great quantitative way to answer it, but perhaps showing more of the playoff data will give a firmer basis for doing so.
But, yes,
- compare relative to their era,
- compare using stats,
- compare using only pro stats (I like the combination college/pro performance for the regular HOF, but not here).
That should provide plenty of progress toward agreement, but also allow room for questions and insight as the analyses progress. Through this process, may we not turn anyone into Skip Bayless or Steven A. Smith, the two angriest men in sports -- it doesn't actually move us to an answer. It may be entertaining to watch Bayless have an aneurysm every day on camera, but it's kind of annoying here.
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RocketsFan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I added a couple of notes to the constitution. The first is that players are to be compared to other players of their era, the second, that a player's value should be measured by how he contributes to his team's success. Most of us will measure this through statistics.
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caperry
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:01 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Is there any easy way to access AV values in the playoffs for each player? I find this a useful tool for evaluation and would like to include the playoff results. I guess I could calculate it myself, but I'm lazy.
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94by50
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:40 am Post subject: Reply with quote
HoopStudies wrote:
It may be entertaining to watch Bayless have an aneurysm every day on camera, but it's kind of annoying here.
No... no, watching Skip flip out isn't entertaining, either. Neither is reading his columns on Page 2. (But that's getting away from the point of the thread.)
Regarding what Bobster said earlier about mentioning this on the APBR Yahoo list: I would like to have as many people involved in this as possible. I know nothing about professional basketball before the BAA/NBA, and I'm not very familiar with the ABA, so I would welcome input from those who know more than I do about those things.
Another comment: perhaps it's trivial, but I prefer a 75% vote as the line for induction, as opposed to 80%. My only reason is that it's what just about everyone else has done with the real Halls. I'm concerned that 80% is a little too restrictive, but that's a matter of personal preference.
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Mike G
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: Reply with quote
caperry wrote:
I think we should only take a players' professional careers into consideration, using statistics as a solid baseline on making judgements.
.
So far, so good. Even if we wanted to weigh in college stats, we wouldn't know how to. But we don't want to, right?
Quote:
I'm also not sure how to take into account playoff performances, which always more things more difficult from a stats perspective (varying sample size, how much to penalize for fewer playoff appearances). I'll be relying mainly on regular season performance because of that probably.
Rather than 'penalize' anyone, how about just augmenting regular seasons with playoffs as a 'bonus'. This can be done annually, or looking at a playoff 'subcareer'. There's merit in both views.
Why does a great player have a lousy playoff career? Because he played on weak teams, because he didn't make his teammates better, because he padded his stats without winning? And once in the playoffs, did he tend to go 3-and-out, or did he impel his team into later rounds?
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94by50
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Mike G wrote:
Rather than 'penalize' anyone, how about just augmenting regular seasons with playoffs as a 'bonus'.
I agree - playoff performance should never penalize a player. Regular season participation is guaranteed, but opportunities in the playoffs are bound to be distributed unequally. So if a player only has one or two playoff appearances in his career, that shouldn't detract from his regular season performances at all.
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antcole
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
94by50 wrote:
Mike G wrote:
Rather than 'penalize' anyone, how about just augmenting regular seasons with playoffs as a 'bonus'.
I agree - playoff performance should never penalize a player. Regular season participation is guaranteed, but opportunities in the playoffs are bound to be distributed unequally. So if a player only has one or two playoff appearances in his career, that shouldn't detract from his regular season performances at all.
I agreee with part of your statement 94. Playoff appearances are dependant on team success so we shouldn't hold that against an individual player. However, I also believe that if a player gets into the postseason then that player should perform at or close to the their high level, because I think that the playoffs are more important than the regular season. To be quite honest, determining the importance of a player's greatness in the context of playoff success can be a pain in the ass.
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caperry
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
any ideas when the first week's ballot will be posted?
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94by50
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
antcole wrote:
I agreee with part of your statement 94. Playoff appearances are dependant on team success so we shouldn't hold that against an individual player. However, I also believe that if a player gets into the postseason then that player should perform at or close to the their high level, because I think that the playoffs are more important than the regular season. To be quite honest, determining the importance of a player's greatness in the context of playoff success can be a pain in the ass.
Agreed - I meant only to say that a player shouldn't be downgraded merely because he played for non-playoff teams. Such as Elton Brand or Shareef Abdur-Rahim...
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RocketsFan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
caperry wrote:
any ideas when the first week's ballot will be posted?
I wasn't thinking of voting based on a ballot; I think just putting forth your choices for the Hall will do fine. I think we can rely on people to vote only for players who truly deserve consideration. I'll just total up the number of votes each player gets and divide by the number of voters.
If everyone wants to do it ballot style, then let me know soon. I would guess we would all make nominations, then vote based on the nominees.
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caperry
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
for 'ballot', i meant a listing of those retiring in 1950 or before (for the case of the 1955 ballot).
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RocketsFan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
caperry wrote:
for 'ballot', i meant a listing of those retiring in 1950 or before (for the case of the 1955 ballot).
I'm afraid you'll have to find the players yourself. I don't have time to organize a list of players based on their retirement year. The APBR website has some good info on early players.
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ziller
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
caperry wrote:
for 'ballot', i meant a listing of those retiring in 1950 or before (for the case of the 1955 ballot).
I actually think this is essential for the earlier years. Difficult, perhaps, but absolutely essential.
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ziller
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually, I think I've found a way to get a list together. I'll update this afternoon with pre-1950 retirees, hopefully.
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ziller
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm guessing we should probably open a new thread for the ballot, but I'll paste it here. I used basketballreference.com's alphabetical player lists, which includes debut and retirement years. I did alter that slightly - changing for instance 1946-1950 to 1947-1951, since the br.com is talking about the 1946-47 season through the 1950-1951 season. Makes more sense.
I have a spreadsheet I'll make fully available shortly that includes the retired players up to the 1998-99 season.
But for players eligible for the first ballot (retired by 1949), here's your list:
Chet Aubuchon
Norm Baker
Herschel Baltimore
John Barr
Frankie Baumholtz
Moe Becker
Hank Biasatti
Al Brightman
Audley Brindley
Harold Brown
Leon Brown
Mike Bytzura
Tom Callahan
Chet Carlisle
Marion Cluggish
Ken Corley
Hal Crisler
Armand Cure
Aubrey Davis
Bill Davis
Henry Dehnert
Bob Dille
Bob Duffy
Don Eliason
Ned Endress
Joe Fabel
Bob Faught
Bill Fenley
Nat Frankel
Frido Frey
Frank Fucarino
Bob Gantt
Gorham Getchell
Gene Gillette
Ben Goldfaden
George Grimshaw
Matt Guokas
Mel Hirsch
Roy Hurley
Winfred Jacobs
Harold Johnson
Roger Jorgensen
Tony Kappen
Ed Kasid
Wilbert Kautz
Ken Keller
Tom King
Harold Kottman
Pete Lalich
Hank Lefkowitz
Al Lujack
Frank Mangiapane
Peter Maravich
Howie Mccarty
Ed Melvin
Zigmund Mihalik
Nat Militzok
Harry Miller
Walt Miller
John Mills
Bob Mullens
Dick Murphy
John Murphy
Al Negratti
Garland O'shields
Doyle Parrack
George Pastushok
George Pearcy
Henry Pearcy
Rob Rensberger
Alexander Rosenberg
Hank Rosenstein
Ossie Schectman
Nick Shaback
Bob Shea
Fred Sheffield
Ralph Siewert
Johnny Simmons
Deb Smith
Gino Sovran
Lou Spicer
Art Stolkey
Wallace Sydnor
Virgil Vaughn
Michael Wallace
Forest Weber
Hank Zeller
John Abramovic
Chuck Connors
Bill Downey
Dick Fitzgerald
Herm Fuetsch
Wilfred Goodwin
Leo Gottlieb
Wyndol Gray
Cecil Hankins
Jack Hewson
Matthew Hickey
Art Hillhouse
Adolph Hoefer
Dick Holub
Paul Huston
John Janisch
Ralph Kaplowitz
Gerard Kelly
Herm Klotz
Saul Mariaschin
Donald Martin
Chet Mcnabb
George Mearns
Wat Misaka
George Munroe
Gene Rock
Jack Rocker
Mickey Rottner
Ben Schadler
Mel Thurston
Ray Wertis
Johnny Bach
Hank Beenders
Gale Bishop
Mike Bloom
Darrell Brown
Ernie Calverley
Joe Colone
Howie Dallmar
Jack Dwan
Lonnie Eggleston
Eddie Ehlers
Jack Eskridge
Phil Farbman
Bob Fitzgerald
Donnie Forman
Earl Gardner
Jack Garfinkel
George Glamack
Coulby Gunther
Ralph Hamilton
John Hazen
Doug Holcomb
Bob Hubbard
Johnny Jorgensen
Edwin Kachan
Tom Kelly
Andy Kostecka
Dan Kraus
Herb Krautblatt
Ray Kuka
Grady Lewis
Al Lucas
Jack Maddox
Lionel Malamed
Don Martin
Mel Mcgaha
Carl Meinhold
Bill Miller
Elmo Morgenthaler
Angelo Musi
Fred Nagy
Paul Napolitano
Stan Noszka
Bob O'brien
Francis O'grady
Fred Paine
John Palmer
Marty Passaglia
Jake Pelkington
Roy Pugh
Howie Rader
Ray Ramsey
Mel Riebe
Lee Robbins
Irv Rothenberg
Giff Roux
Ben Scharnus
Otto Schnellbacher
Earl Shannon
Dick Shrider
Donald Smith
Jim Springer
Jim Spruill
Stan Stutz
Sid Tannenbaum
Howard Tidrick
Jack Tingle
Andy Tonkovich
Irv Torgoff
Dick Wehr
Ward Williams
Matt Zunic
Does this look right to everyone? If not, let me know. I'll try to figure out what's going on.
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jkubatko
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
ziller wrote:
I'm guessing we should probably open a new thread for the ballot, but I'll paste it here. I used basketballreference.com's alphabetical player lists, which includes debut and retirement years.
Bah, you should have used my site.
I have just added pages that list players by their final season, along with their career statistics. Here is an example.
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ziller
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:02 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, I'll be damned.
This will be highly efficient for use during this project. Brilliant, as always JKub.
(And you know I much prefer your ref site anyways.)
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RocketsFan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the help, guys. I had no idea there were pages out there that showed all players retirement years, and I didn't want to figure it out manually (I've got three papers hanging over my head).
The only problem I see with your list of pre-1950 players, ziller, is that it doesn't include NBL players. Still, it's a great resource. I appreciate the work you and Justin have done.
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caperry
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
jkubatko wrote:
Bah, you should have used my site. Smile
That's very helpful, although am i the only one who can't acccess any lists from 1950 or earlier?
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jkubatko
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
caperry wrote:
That's very helpful, although am i the only one who can't acccess any lists from 1950 or earlier?
They are there, but they are listed under "BAA." Here are the 1947, 1948, and 1949 seasons.
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Bobster
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: Reply with quote
ziller wrote:
I'm guessing we should probably open a new thread for the ballot, but I'll paste it here. I used basketballreference.com's alphabetical player lists, which includes debut and retirement years. I did alter that slightly - changing for instance 1946-1950 to 1947-1951, since the br.com is talking about the 1946-47 season through the 1950-1951 season. Makes more sense.
I have a spreadsheet I'll make fully available shortly that includes the retired players up to the 1998-99 season.
[snip.]
Does this look right to everyone? If not, let me know. I'll try to figure out what's going on.
unfortunately the list only includes BAA/NBA players.
and there could probably be some simple qualifier [like four years of play, or 200 games played] to weed out a lot of players who have zero chance of getting voted in. [for instance - sure ossie schectman plays some minor significance in NBA history, but is he really a worthy candidate? (he played one season and averaged 8.1 PPG)]
perhaps a list of four-year NBL players can be voted on first before moving on to the BAA - least the players like ed sadowski, bobby mcdermott and leroy edwards get ignored.
i decided on four years or 200 games after taking maurice stokes and clark kellogg into consideration - both exceptional talents who had their careers cut short by injuries. and while we might not feel they deserve induction, they probably deserve consideration. alex groza and ralph beard (who both played two seasons and 125-130 games) would not, and that's acceptable to me.
would i vote for stokes and kellogg? that's not really the point, but i think it's reasonable that they would be the standard for consideration.
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Bobster
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:25 am Post subject: Reply with quote
PS - using the 4-year, 200 game qualifier the retiring players from 1946-1950 who would qualify [NBA-only] would be -
jim seminoff
ed sadowski
bob feerick
george nostrand
don putman
dick schulz
bob doll
butch van breda kolff
art spector
which would be a much more managable list for discussion.
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ziller
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree whole-heartedly with Bob's suggestion. And once we get past this first election, the ballot will be much easier to manage, thanks to Justin's work.
Anyone got a list of qualifying NBLers?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I thought it might be helpful for you all to have a listing of All-League selections by player.
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jkubatko
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I also added a page containing All-Star game selections by player.
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Bobster
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
ziller wrote:
I agree whole-heartedly with Bob's suggestion. And once we get past this first election, the ballot will be much easier to manage, thanks to Justin's work.
Anyone got a list of qualifying NBLers?
i can cobble one together saturday if no one else has one. i'll have to crack open some dusty old books though.....
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gabefarkas
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:29 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Justin - I love how on other pages you repeated the headings during even intervals...like every 10-20 lines or so. That might make those new pages easier to read.
Other than that, fantastic work as always!
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jkubatko
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 4:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
gabefarkas wrote:
Justin - I love how on other pages you repeated the headings during even intervals...like every 10-20 lines or so. That might make those new pages easier to read.
Done and done.
gabefarkas wrote:
Other than that, fantastic work as always!
Thanks. You guys (and gals) are always welcome to express your gratitude by sponsoring a page or two.
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gabefarkas
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
jkubatko wrote:
Thanks. You guys (and gals) are always welcome to express your gratitude by sponsoring a page or two. Smile
what's your Tax ID number? Razz
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Bobster
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: Reply with quote
don't know if i missed anybody, but here's a list of players i found who played in the NBL and retired in 1950 or before -
Ray Adams 1941
Ernie Andres 1948
Scotty Armstrong 1942
Frank Baird 1942
Lou Barle 1943
Connie Mack Berry 1946
Paul Birch 1946
Price Brookfield 1950
Jerry Bush 1948
Howie Cable 1942
Bob Calihan 1949
Ed Dancker 1949
Bob Dietz 1948
Leroy Edwards 1949
Ned Endress 1947
Gene Englund 1950
Ed Erban 1947
Bob Fitzgerald 1949
Elmer Gainer 1950
Dutch Garfinkle 1949
Bob Gerber 1948
George Glamack 1949
Dale Hamilton 1950
Bill Hapac 1948
George Hesik 1942
Nat Hickey 1948
George Hogan 1946
Buddy Jeannette 1950
Wibs Kautz 1947
Leo Klier 1950
Otto Kolar 1942
Milo Komenich 1950
Pete Lalich 1947
Rube Lautenschlanger 1947
Ed Lewinski 1949
Fred Lewis 1950
Pat Linskey 1941
Al Lucas 1949
Bobby McDermott 1949
Bill McDonald 1948
Vince McGowan 1945
Walt Miller 1947
Johnny Moir 1946
Max Morris 1950
Bobby Neu 1946
Richie Niemiera 1950
Tommy Nisbet 1943
Woody Norris 1948
Paul Nowalk 1942
Johnny Orr 1950
Jack Ozburn 1942
Stan Patrick 1950
Jake Pelkington 1949
Dave Quabius 1943
Mel Riebe 1949
Eddie Riska 1949
Ed Sadowski 1950
Herm Schaefer 1950
Milt Schoon 1950
Dick Schultz 1950
Rollie Seltz 1950
Charley Shipp 1950
Don Smith 1949
George Sobek 1950
Paul Sokody 1943
Joe Sotak 1941
Ken Suesans 1949
Bob Sullivan 1948
Stan Szukala 1947
Hal Tidrick 1949
Irv Torgoff 1949
Bob Tough 1950
Blackie Towery 1950
Dick Triptow 1950
Ralph Vaughn 1947
Clint Wager 1950
Herm Witasek 1942
Tom Wukovits 1946
Jewell Young 1946
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