Lebron James is clearly best utilized as a power forward. One of the most overlooked aspects of building a team is team speed. Another aspect of building a team that has long been overlooked, but is arguably now adequately considered, is rim protection. Due to James being one of the fastest and most athletic players in the league, putting James at what is usually the second-slowest position makes it much easier to have a massive speed advantage over most lineups in the NBA. This speed advantage will naturally improve the defense and lead to more transition opportunities offensively, and everyone knows that Lebron is one of the most devastating forces in transition in NBA history. It is only logical to combine Lebron with a "star" power forward if that power forward can move to the center position and provide great rim protection. Kevin Love is clearly a horrendous rim protector as a center. I believe Chris Bosh is also not very good at protecting the rim, although I haven't seen any numbers either dispelling this or backing this up.
The optimum way to build a team around James is to assemble a roster that naturally allows his unique advantages to be extremely active and efficient. Three simple keys to optimally building a team around James are as follows:
1. James should be the power forward at all times.
2. The center should be a great rim protector and hopefully be able to finish lobs very well.
3. Positions 1-3 should should be able to shoot threes and play defense.
Although Kyrie Irving is an incredible ball handler and three point shooter, he has to be one of the most horrendous defenders the league has ever known. Just go check his RPM on defense over the years if you need any data to back this up. He is so bad on defense that he is basically a slightly above average player. If he was properly utilized in an offense that spread the floor around him and constantly allowed him to isolate against a defender in space, he could probably be a slightly worse version of James Harden as far as impact is concerned. Due to the fact that he will never be optimally utilized on offense, he will never play good enough offense to make up enough for his horrendous defense to the degree that he will be worth a maximum contract. To make matters worse, he is a fragile player who might suffer another massive injury any time soon. It is time to sell Irving's stock while it is at one of its peaks.
Kevin Love Must Be Traded (And probably Irving too)
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Dr Positivity
- Posts: 331
- Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:44 pm
Re: Kevin Love Must Be Traded (And probably Irving too)
Well if we use RPM to lower Irving's value, then Love's great RPM (10th in the league, 2nd for PFs, even 13th in DRPM for PFs) should be taken into account as a positive
I don't love Irving's game but his value may be high against the Warriors matchup. Haralabob brought up a fascinating point on twitter recently about how he thought the turning point for GSW's season was the Spurs using a switch everything defense against them, then other teams started to follow suit, and that he thought the whole league could move in that direction defensively. For the Warriors Curry didn't do that badly defending Irving, the problem was anytime a non PG was on him, then they couldn't handle his skills. Irving is very effective counter to what the Warriors are most comfortable doing defensively. Going forward the more switching becomes popular if it does, it could lead to a comeback for isolation skills and players that can only be guarded by those at their natural position. Could even mean there's still a place for post players.
I don't love Irving's game but his value may be high against the Warriors matchup. Haralabob brought up a fascinating point on twitter recently about how he thought the turning point for GSW's season was the Spurs using a switch everything defense against them, then other teams started to follow suit, and that he thought the whole league could move in that direction defensively. For the Warriors Curry didn't do that badly defending Irving, the problem was anytime a non PG was on him, then they couldn't handle his skills. Irving is very effective counter to what the Warriors are most comfortable doing defensively. Going forward the more switching becomes popular if it does, it could lead to a comeback for isolation skills and players that can only be guarded by those at their natural position. Could even mean there's still a place for post players.
Re: Kevin Love Must Be Traded (And probably Irving too)
I decided to conduct a study to determine the effectiveness of James at the 4 verses James at the 3. I used data from the twenty most heavily played lineups in each season between the years 2007 and 2016. The seasonal 3 column is calculated as (Differential/min for lineups with Lebron at the 3 during that season)*(min). This column serves as an expected differential of an average lineup featuring James at the 3 for the indicated season if that average lineup played the same quantity of minutes that the lineup in the row played. The Net column is simply +/- minus Seasonal 3. The Net column then provides an estimate of how well the lineup featuring James at the 4 performed relative to how an average lineup featuring James at the 3 would have performed in the same quantity of minutes during the same season.
# Season Lineup Min +/- Seasonal 3 Net
1 2007-2008 Gibson-Da.Jones-D.Brown-James-Varejao 74 11 6.77 4.23
2 2007-2008 Da.Jones-D.Brown-James-Smith-Varejao 40 14 3.66 10.34
3 2007-2008 Da.Jones-D.Brown-Szczerbiak-James-Smith 36 -12 3.30 -15.30
4 2007-2008 Snow-Hughes-Newble-James-Ilgauskas 33 -10 3.02 -13.02
5 2008-2009 Gibson-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 136 49 29.54 19.46
6 2008-2009 Gibson-Williams-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 78 10 16.94 -6.94
7 2008-2009 Williams-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 47 27 10.21 16.79
8 2008-2009 West-Szczerbiak-Pavlovic-James-Varejao 44 21 9.56 11.44
9 2008-2009 Gibson-Szczerbiak-Pavlovic-James-Varejao 36 19 7.82 11.18
10 2010-2011 Chalmers-Miller-Jones-James-Ilgauskas 44 5 12.85 -7.85
11 2010-2011 Bibby-Wade-Jones-James-Bosh 42 16 12.44 3.56
12 2010-2011 House-Miller-Jones-James-Anthony 39 7 11.49 -4.49
13 2010-2011 Bibby-Wade-Miller-James-Bosh 37 11 10.91 0.09
14 2011-2012 Cole-Miller-Battier-James-Haslem 78 39 11.48 27.52
15 2011-2012 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Anthony 72 5 10.64 -5.64
16 2011-2012 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 64 33 9.45 23.55
17 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 300 118 33.71 84.29
18 2012-2013 Wade-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 135 53 15.14 37.86
19 2012-2013 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Andersen 118 31 13.25 17.75
20 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 113 87 12.67 74.33
21 2012-2013 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Anthony 101 -1 11.40 -12.40
22 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Haslem 93 55 10.51 44.49
23 2012-2013 Chalmers-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 91 22 10.24 11.76
24 2012-2013 Cole-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 71 -12 7.98 -19.98
25 2012-2013 Chalmers-Allen-Battier-James-Andersen 54 -2 6.07 -8.07
26 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Miller-James-Bosh 52 21 5.86 15.14
27 2012-2013 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 48 0 5.39 -5.39
28 2012-2013 Chalmers-Miller-Battier-James-Bosh 45 23 5.03 17.97
29 2013-2014 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 429 46 37.55 8.45
30 2013-2014 Chalmers-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 194 50 17.00 33.00
31 2013-2014 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Andersen 93 -4 8.11 -12.11
32 2013-2014 Chalmers-Douglas-Battier-James-Bosh 81 8 7.07 0.93
33 2013-2014 Chalmers-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 66 43 5.77 37.23
34 2013-2014 Cole-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 60 6 5.24 0.76
35 2013-2014 Cole-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 48 10 4.21 5.79
36 2013-2014 Chalmers-Cole-Battier-James-Bosh 46 7 3.99 3.01
37 2013-2014 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 45 -6 3.92 -9.92
38 2014-2015 Dellavedova-Shumpert-Jones-James-Thompson 68 -2 17.40 -19.40
39 2014-2015 Dellavedova-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Thompson 35 33 8.93 24.07
40 2015-2016 Dellavedova-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Thompson 61 -9 9.38 -18.38
41 2015-2016 Irving-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Love 42 3 6.41 -3.41
42 2015-2016 Irving-Dellavedova-JR.Smith-James-Love 39 39 6.09 32.91
43 2015-2016 Irving-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Thompson 36 -10 5.48 -15.48
SUM 3462 NA NA 400
Net/48 Min 5.55
The results vehemently indicate that James is indeed optimally utilized as a PF instead of as a SF. The net/48 minutes is a staggering +5.55. The numbers would probably be even greater if each lineup was adjusted for the quality of players. Many of the lineups that had a negative net rating included players clearly inferior to available players on the roster.
Lineup 4 included Ira Newble.
Lineup 10 included James Jones and was missing Wade.
Lineup 12 included Eddie House and James Jones and was missing Wade.
Lineup 15 included Joel Anthony.
Lineup 21 was missing Wade and included Joel Anthony.
Lineup 27 was missing Wade.
Lineup 31 was missing Wade.
Lineup 37 was missing Wade.
Lineup 38 was missing Irving during Irving's best season.
# Season Lineup Min +/- Seasonal 3 Net
1 2007-2008 Gibson-Da.Jones-D.Brown-James-Varejao 74 11 6.77 4.23
2 2007-2008 Da.Jones-D.Brown-James-Smith-Varejao 40 14 3.66 10.34
3 2007-2008 Da.Jones-D.Brown-Szczerbiak-James-Smith 36 -12 3.30 -15.30
4 2007-2008 Snow-Hughes-Newble-James-Ilgauskas 33 -10 3.02 -13.02
5 2008-2009 Gibson-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 136 49 29.54 19.46
6 2008-2009 Gibson-Williams-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 78 10 16.94 -6.94
7 2008-2009 Williams-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 47 27 10.21 16.79
8 2008-2009 West-Szczerbiak-Pavlovic-James-Varejao 44 21 9.56 11.44
9 2008-2009 Gibson-Szczerbiak-Pavlovic-James-Varejao 36 19 7.82 11.18
10 2010-2011 Chalmers-Miller-Jones-James-Ilgauskas 44 5 12.85 -7.85
11 2010-2011 Bibby-Wade-Jones-James-Bosh 42 16 12.44 3.56
12 2010-2011 House-Miller-Jones-James-Anthony 39 7 11.49 -4.49
13 2010-2011 Bibby-Wade-Miller-James-Bosh 37 11 10.91 0.09
14 2011-2012 Cole-Miller-Battier-James-Haslem 78 39 11.48 27.52
15 2011-2012 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Anthony 72 5 10.64 -5.64
16 2011-2012 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 64 33 9.45 23.55
17 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 300 118 33.71 84.29
18 2012-2013 Wade-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 135 53 15.14 37.86
19 2012-2013 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Andersen 118 31 13.25 17.75
20 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 113 87 12.67 74.33
21 2012-2013 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Anthony 101 -1 11.40 -12.40
22 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Haslem 93 55 10.51 44.49
23 2012-2013 Chalmers-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 91 22 10.24 11.76
24 2012-2013 Cole-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 71 -12 7.98 -19.98
25 2012-2013 Chalmers-Allen-Battier-James-Andersen 54 -2 6.07 -8.07
26 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Miller-James-Bosh 52 21 5.86 15.14
27 2012-2013 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 48 0 5.39 -5.39
28 2012-2013 Chalmers-Miller-Battier-James-Bosh 45 23 5.03 17.97
29 2013-2014 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 429 46 37.55 8.45
30 2013-2014 Chalmers-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 194 50 17.00 33.00
31 2013-2014 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Andersen 93 -4 8.11 -12.11
32 2013-2014 Chalmers-Douglas-Battier-James-Bosh 81 8 7.07 0.93
33 2013-2014 Chalmers-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 66 43 5.77 37.23
34 2013-2014 Cole-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 60 6 5.24 0.76
35 2013-2014 Cole-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 48 10 4.21 5.79
36 2013-2014 Chalmers-Cole-Battier-James-Bosh 46 7 3.99 3.01
37 2013-2014 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 45 -6 3.92 -9.92
38 2014-2015 Dellavedova-Shumpert-Jones-James-Thompson 68 -2 17.40 -19.40
39 2014-2015 Dellavedova-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Thompson 35 33 8.93 24.07
40 2015-2016 Dellavedova-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Thompson 61 -9 9.38 -18.38
41 2015-2016 Irving-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Love 42 3 6.41 -3.41
42 2015-2016 Irving-Dellavedova-JR.Smith-James-Love 39 39 6.09 32.91
43 2015-2016 Irving-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Thompson 36 -10 5.48 -15.48
SUM 3462 NA NA 400
Net/48 Min 5.55
The results vehemently indicate that James is indeed optimally utilized as a PF instead of as a SF. The net/48 minutes is a staggering +5.55. The numbers would probably be even greater if each lineup was adjusted for the quality of players. Many of the lineups that had a negative net rating included players clearly inferior to available players on the roster.
Lineup 4 included Ira Newble.
Lineup 10 included James Jones and was missing Wade.
Lineup 12 included Eddie House and James Jones and was missing Wade.
Lineup 15 included Joel Anthony.
Lineup 21 was missing Wade and included Joel Anthony.
Lineup 27 was missing Wade.
Lineup 31 was missing Wade.
Lineup 37 was missing Wade.
Lineup 38 was missing Irving during Irving's best season.
Last edited by Kathoro on Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Kevin Love Must Be Traded (And probably Irving too)
To answer Dr. Positivity:
I agree that Irving is a specific threat to switch-heavy defenses. The problem is that he simply will not be optimally utilized with any intense consistency. One of the reasons that switching is so effective in the NBA is because teams simply lack the game-planning, discipline, and poise to consistently obtain favorable switches and attack those switches in the correct manner. The reason that switching is defensively more effective than it should be is also the reason why Irving will continue to be less offensively effective than he should be. Furthermore, all the evidence indicates that Irving will continue to play horrendous defense and accrue significant injuries.
As for Love having an impressive RPM:
I do believe that Love has become quite an underrated player over the last two seasons. He can be an extremely positive player if he is playing the power forward position for a team that has great rim protection at the center position. The problem with him playing for the Cavaliers is that Lebron and Love are both optimally utilized as power forwards with great rim protection playing beside them at the center position. Since James must play power forward to optimize the Cavaliers, Love would have to move to center in this scenario to stay on the court. Unfortunately, Love is horrendous at protecting the rim, especially while playing as the center. Furthermore, the inability of Love to defend the pick and roll makes him a specific weakness against the Warriors.
I agree that Irving is a specific threat to switch-heavy defenses. The problem is that he simply will not be optimally utilized with any intense consistency. One of the reasons that switching is so effective in the NBA is because teams simply lack the game-planning, discipline, and poise to consistently obtain favorable switches and attack those switches in the correct manner. The reason that switching is defensively more effective than it should be is also the reason why Irving will continue to be less offensively effective than he should be. Furthermore, all the evidence indicates that Irving will continue to play horrendous defense and accrue significant injuries.
As for Love having an impressive RPM:
I do believe that Love has become quite an underrated player over the last two seasons. He can be an extremely positive player if he is playing the power forward position for a team that has great rim protection at the center position. The problem with him playing for the Cavaliers is that Lebron and Love are both optimally utilized as power forwards with great rim protection playing beside them at the center position. Since James must play power forward to optimize the Cavaliers, Love would have to move to center in this scenario to stay on the court. Unfortunately, Love is horrendous at protecting the rim, especially while playing as the center. Furthermore, the inability of Love to defend the pick and roll makes him a specific weakness against the Warriors.
Re: Kevin Love Must Be Traded (And probably Irving too)
I actually just found a small error in my data. Lineup 2 included James at the SF, but I had accidentally labeled it as a lineup including James at the PF. I re-ran the numbers with lineup 2 properly handled and obtained a net/48 minutes rating of +5.45. Still incredibly high.
# Season Lineup Min +/- Seasonal 3 Net
1 2007-2008 Gibson-Da.Jones-D.Brown-James-Varejao 74 11 7.29 3.71
2 2007-2008 Da.Jones-D.Brown-Szczerbiak-James-Smith 36 -12 3.55 -15.55
3 2007-2008 Snow-Hughes-Newble-James-Ilgauskas 33 -10 3.25 -13.25
4 2008-2009 Gibson-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 136 49 29.54 19.46
5 2008-2009 Gibson-Williams-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 78 10 16.94 -6.94
6 2008-2009 Williams-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 47 27 10.21 16.79
7 2008-2009 West-Szczerbiak-Pavlovic-James-Varejao 44 21 9.56 11.44
8 2008-2009 Gibson-Szczerbiak-Pavlovic-James-Varejao 36 19 7.82 11.18
9 2010-2011 Chalmers-Miller-Jones-James-Ilgauskas 44 5 12.85 -7.85
10 2010-2011 Bibby-Wade-Jones-James-Bosh 42 16 12.44 3.56
11 2010-2011 House-Miller-Jones-James-Anthony 39 7 11.49 -4.49
12 2010-2011 Bibby-Wade-Miller-James-Bosh 37 11 10.91 0.09
13 2011-2012 Cole-Miller-Battier-James-Haslem 78 39 11.48 27.52
14 2011-2012 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Anthony 72 5 10.64 -5.64
15 2011-2012 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 64 33 9.45 23.55
16 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 300 118 33.71 84.29
17 2012-2013 Wade-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 135 53 15.14 37.86
18 2012-2013 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Andersen 118 31 13.25 17.75
19 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 113 87 12.67 74.33
20 2012-2013 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Anthony 101 -1 11.40 -12.40
21 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Haslem 93 55 10.51 44.49
22 2012-2013 Chalmers-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 91 22 10.24 11.76
23 2012-2013 Cole-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 71 -12 7.98 -19.98
24 2012-2013 Chalmers-Allen-Battier-James-Andersen 54 -2 6.07 -8.07
25 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Miller-James-Bosh 52 21 5.86 15.14
26 2012-2013 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 48 0 5.39 -5.39
27 2012-2013 Chalmers-Miller-Battier-James-Bosh 45 23 5.03 17.97
28 2013-2014 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 429 46 37.55 8.45
29 2013-2014 Chalmers-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 194 50 17.00 33.00
30 2013-2014 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Andersen 93 -4 8.11 -12.11
31 2013-2014 Chalmers-Douglas-Battier-James-Bosh 81 8 7.07 0.93
32 2013-2014 Chalmers-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 66 43 5.77 37.23
33 2013-2014 Cole-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 60 6 5.24 0.76
34 2013-2014 Cole-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 48 10 4.21 5.79
35 2013-2014 Chalmers-Cole-Battier-James-Bosh 46 7 3.99 3.01
36 2013-2014 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 45 -6 3.92 -9.92
37 2014-2015 Dellavedova-Shumpert-Jones-James-Thompson 68 -2 17.40 -19.40
38 2014-2015 Dellavedova-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Thompson 35 33 8.93 24.07
39 2015-2016 Dellavedova-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Thompson 61 -9 9.38 -18.38
40 2015-2016 Irving-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Love 42 3 6.41 -3.41
41 2015-2016 Irving-Dellavedova-JR.Smith-James-Love 39 39 6.09 32.91
42 2015-2016 Irving-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Thompson 36 -10 5.48 -15.48
SUM 3422 NA NA 389
Net/48 Min 5.45
# Season Lineup Min +/- Seasonal 3 Net
1 2007-2008 Gibson-Da.Jones-D.Brown-James-Varejao 74 11 7.29 3.71
2 2007-2008 Da.Jones-D.Brown-Szczerbiak-James-Smith 36 -12 3.55 -15.55
3 2007-2008 Snow-Hughes-Newble-James-Ilgauskas 33 -10 3.25 -13.25
4 2008-2009 Gibson-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 136 49 29.54 19.46
5 2008-2009 Gibson-Williams-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 78 10 16.94 -6.94
6 2008-2009 Williams-West-Szczerbiak-James-Varejao 47 27 10.21 16.79
7 2008-2009 West-Szczerbiak-Pavlovic-James-Varejao 44 21 9.56 11.44
8 2008-2009 Gibson-Szczerbiak-Pavlovic-James-Varejao 36 19 7.82 11.18
9 2010-2011 Chalmers-Miller-Jones-James-Ilgauskas 44 5 12.85 -7.85
10 2010-2011 Bibby-Wade-Jones-James-Bosh 42 16 12.44 3.56
11 2010-2011 House-Miller-Jones-James-Anthony 39 7 11.49 -4.49
12 2010-2011 Bibby-Wade-Miller-James-Bosh 37 11 10.91 0.09
13 2011-2012 Cole-Miller-Battier-James-Haslem 78 39 11.48 27.52
14 2011-2012 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Anthony 72 5 10.64 -5.64
15 2011-2012 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 64 33 9.45 23.55
16 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 300 118 33.71 84.29
17 2012-2013 Wade-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 135 53 15.14 37.86
18 2012-2013 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Andersen 118 31 13.25 17.75
19 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 113 87 12.67 74.33
20 2012-2013 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Anthony 101 -1 11.40 -12.40
21 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Haslem 93 55 10.51 44.49
22 2012-2013 Chalmers-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 91 22 10.24 11.76
23 2012-2013 Cole-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 71 -12 7.98 -19.98
24 2012-2013 Chalmers-Allen-Battier-James-Andersen 54 -2 6.07 -8.07
25 2012-2013 Chalmers-Wade-Miller-James-Bosh 52 21 5.86 15.14
26 2012-2013 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 48 0 5.39 -5.39
27 2012-2013 Chalmers-Miller-Battier-James-Bosh 45 23 5.03 17.97
28 2013-2014 Chalmers-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 429 46 37.55 8.45
29 2013-2014 Chalmers-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 194 50 17.00 33.00
30 2013-2014 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Andersen 93 -4 8.11 -12.11
31 2013-2014 Chalmers-Douglas-Battier-James-Bosh 81 8 7.07 0.93
32 2013-2014 Chalmers-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 66 43 5.77 37.23
33 2013-2014 Cole-Wade-Battier-James-Bosh 60 6 5.24 0.76
34 2013-2014 Cole-Wade-Allen-James-Bosh 48 10 4.21 5.79
35 2013-2014 Chalmers-Cole-Battier-James-Bosh 46 7 3.99 3.01
36 2013-2014 Cole-Allen-Battier-James-Bosh 45 -6 3.92 -9.92
37 2014-2015 Dellavedova-Shumpert-Jones-James-Thompson 68 -2 17.40 -19.40
38 2014-2015 Dellavedova-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Thompson 35 33 8.93 24.07
39 2015-2016 Dellavedova-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Thompson 61 -9 9.38 -18.38
40 2015-2016 Irving-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Love 42 3 6.41 -3.41
41 2015-2016 Irving-Dellavedova-JR.Smith-James-Love 39 39 6.09 32.91
42 2015-2016 Irving-Shumpert-JR.Smith-James-Thompson 36 -10 5.48 -15.48
SUM 3422 NA NA 389
Net/48 Min 5.45
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huevonkiller
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:36 pm
- Location: Miami, Florida
Re: Kevin Love Must Be Traded (And probably Irving too)
Yes he was terrible on defense, but only in these playoffs. In the regular season he actually allowed 43.1% DFG% (on 8.7 attempts, about Leonard's volume) slightly better than average relative to his opponents. And this is coming off an injury.Kathoro wrote:
Although Kyrie Irving is an incredible ball handler and three point shooter, he has to be one of the most horrendous defenders the league has ever known.
He's also played at LeBron level offensively during the Finals, probably better once you consider the spacing he can give a team and extra shots he could have hoisted up from three if LeBron didn't hog as much. They're probably not going to trade him unless the Cavs remake their whole team or get some incredible offer. Should they trade him one day? That's another question. I don't think the Cavs will ever win another ring with this core, so probably.
If he just regresses back to his regular season mean he'll be a useful enough player on defense. You overreact too much, and RPM is super noisy. Stephen Curry's 2015 regular season is rated higher than his 2016 regular season for instance (IIRC even before it counted the choke in the Finals and playoffs).
Yes in the playoffs you're right, not in the regular season. Tracking stats are more reliable and accurate than goofy RPM-type stats. Irving is probably a below average defender but he can be close to average, and he can be historically good offensively.Kathoro wrote: Just go check his RPM on defense over the years if you need any data to back this up. He is so bad on defense that he is basically a slightly above average player.
James Harden and Westbrook are basically tied in defense according to tracking stats during the regular season. Westbrook is better in the playoffs defensively, but Harden's defensive woe's are overstated, just like Kawhi Leonard hasn't actually been the best defender in the league two years in a row, nor did he stop LeBron in the Finals that year. LeBron stops himself probably, with his sub-optimal body weight and passiveness. He still had a solid series against Leonard anyway.Kathoro wrote: If he was properly utilized in an offense that spread the floor around him and constantly allowed him to isolate against a defender in space, he could probably be a slightly worse version of James Harden as far as impact is concerned.
James Harden's defense is good enough for someone that plays as much as he does and has that much skill. He should probably cut down on the minutes and games.
Irving is somewhat overrated based on his exciting persona, but he's not a horrendous defender every year. He's somewhat below average or average defensively.Due to the fact that he will never be optimally utilized on offense, he will never play good enough offense to make up enough for his horrendous defense to the degree that he will be worth a maximum contract. To make matters worse, he is a fragile player who might suffer another massive injury any time soon. It is time to sell Irving's stock while it is at one of its peaks.
Since LeBron is about to be 32, I could see Irving becoming a more important player on offense. He is really fragile but he got hurt last season after playing a lot of minutes during the regular season, if he rests for the playoffs he should be significantly more durable.
If the Warriors' current players step on the court together and play during the playoffs they should win a title next year no matter what the Cavs or anyone else does. The Cavs are fortunate Steph is fragile, they're still underachievers and play in a terrible conference. The Warriors need to forget about regular season records and all that noise.