Kobe Bryant and All-Time Ranking of Players

[permaximum]

In light of recent news, I wonder where do analysts in this forum rank Kobe and why? You can share your own all-time list. I always wondered about your lists anyways.

[Crow]

Haters and / or tough graders have knocked him down to #393 on BR's elo rater.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi

I have been called a hater and a tough grader but I'd probably slot him at around 15th - 30th.

There are some other whack Elo Ratings. Used to be pretty good.

Magic #33? Please. Top 10.

[DSMok1]

I've done a few posts on a "Hall Rating" system. Win Shares based: http://godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/2014/n ... ll-rating/

[Crow]

Kobe 17th there. Magic 10th. About the same as I quick shot.

[permaximum]

I have seen Kobe's elo rating before and surprised at the hate.

Still, Kobe has never made past first round without Shaq or Gasol. Also, Lakers' record with Kobe but without Shaq or Gasol should be very close to .500. Kobe's not very efficient obviously and he's the second greatest ballhog after MJ (ballhog = TSA per poss). And Lakers' record with/without him :

Year, With Him, Without Him
1996/97, 48-23 (.676), 8-3 (.728)
1997/98, 58-21 (.734), 3-0 (1.000)
1998/99, 31-19 (.620), -
1999/00, 55-11 (.833), 12-4 (.750)
2000/01, 45-23 (.661), 11-3 (.789)
2001/02, 56-24 (0.700), 2-0 (1.000)
2002/03, 50-32 (0.609), -
2003/04, 48-17 (.738), 8-9 (.471)
2004/05 (Shaq's gone), 28-38 (.424), 6-10 (.375)
2005/06, 45-35 (.562), 0-2 (.000)
2006/07, 39-38 (.506), 3-2 (.600)
2007/08, 57-25 (.695), -
2008/09, 65-17 (.792), -
2009/10, 51-22 (.698), 6-3 (.667)
2010/11, 57-25 (.695), -
2011/12, 36-22 (.620), 5-3 (.625)
2012/13 (Gasol's gone Howard's come), 42-36 (.538), 3-1 (.750)

It looks his stamina was great. He only missed 107 games in 17 seasons before his decline. However, I couldn't see any obvious pattern above, except Lakers was hit hard when Shaq and then Gasol left.

[permaximum]

I quickly disregard WS. I would never look at any all-in-one metrics to make an all-time list. At 100% roster turnover rate, even MPG with it's obvious flaws for these tests, captures the effect of a single player on the outcome of games better than any other metric and that's what we're looking for here. RPM and BPM is somewhat good at yearly prediction at team level thanks to low roster turnover rate but that's all. As for WS, it's nothing.

[Nate]

I recall I saw an interview someone put Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the spot whether Kobe was "the greatest Laker of all time" and Kareem readily rattled off a dozen Lakers - starting with George Mikan - that could easily be put before Kobe. The Lakers are a storied franchise but that still leaves me thinking Bryant might not be in the top 100 all time.

[Mike G]

I got Kobe #12 alltime. Among guards, behind only Jordan and Magic.
Without my Versatility Index, he'd be at #9, ahead of Garnett, Magic, and Bird. Kobe is basically a scorer.

In the VORP era, he ranks 15th in RS and 8th in PO VORP. But he's 3rd in PO minutes.
All-time RS, he's 10th in minutes, 3rd in points, 14th in steals, 29th in assists.
In PO, he's 3rd in Pts, 5th in Stl, 9th in Ast.

More playoff assists than Jordan, Isiah, West, Cousy, Cheeks ...
He was up and down in playoffs, but his PO/RS productivity ratio (as I figure it) is .95, the norm being about .92 -- less in the West, in the Kobe era.

Code: Select all

KB   eFG%  TS%  ORtg  DRtg   WS/48   PER   BPM   Usg%
RS  .484  .552   111   105   .175   23.1   4.0   31.8
PO  .480  .541   110   106   .157   22.4   4.4   31.0

KB   3PAr  FTr   ORb%  DRb%   Ast%   Stl%  Blk%   TO%
RS  .205  .387   3.5   12.7   24.4   2.1   1.0   11.7
PO  .196  .359   3.0   11.9   23.3   1.9   1.3   11.0

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nko01.html

[Mike G]

As a Laker, in RS, Kobe has 10,000 minutes more than anyone else (Kareem #2). He has 7500 more points than anyone else (West). He has twice the points James Worthy scored.
With 70 assists, he'll pass West and be #2 behind Magic.
He's 1st in steals (since 1974) and 5th in blocks; 3rd in rebounds, behind Kareem and Baylor; more than twice the 3-ptrs of anyone else (Fisher).
Also 1st in Win Shares, 173-163 over West.
http://bkref.com/tiny/Wnsdj

In playoffs, similar ranks across the board -- 2nd to Magic in WS.
If you were building an all-time Lakers team, it would be very hard to exclude Kobe, Magic, or West.

[Statman]

The Lakers are a storied franchise but that still leaves me thinking Bryant might not be in the top 100 all time.

What?

[permaximum]

Kobe's definetely top-50 let alone top-100. I think there shouldn't be a question about it. Imo he would be top 10 at 1-on-1. But I definetely think his help on team wins not "that" great.

[Mike G]

Agreed. "That great" is quite great when you approach Alltime Top 10. Any weakness, or lack of versatility, will stop a player from surpassing a Bird or Magic.

What other guards rank above Kobe, besides the MJ's?

[Nate]

... but that still leaves me thinking Bryant might not be in the top 100 all time.

What?

Basically, "all-time ranking" is subjective: there's no sensible way to argue that George Mikan is 'better' or 'worse' than Kobe Bryant.

[kmedved]

If I wanted to find opposing SG stats vs. the Lakers for Kobe's career, is there a source for that other than 82 games? I can't find a way to spit that out via the play index.

[Crow]

I'd use the play by play based 82games data for presumed Kobe counterpart covers but you can also find team level data by opposing positions at hoopsstats.com. http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... 11-1-1-eff